Remove Advertisements

10 vs 25 difficulty

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, guillex

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby exiledknight » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:26 pm

Belloc wrote:
exiledknight wrote:The VP is different, but loot is the same, 2 items in 10 man 5 in 25, 1 per every 5 people in the raid. As far as boss areas being smaller, this is not anything I noticed over the holidays when we were stuck doing 10 mans.

Loot is not the same on heroic. 10-man heroic drops 2 items, 25-man drops 6 items at a chance at 1-2 heroic tier tokens.
2 vs 6-8. If 10-man had a chance at 1 token (or just 1 guaranteed), I'd call loot balanced.


Was unaware of the heroic drops on 10 man, I had figured one more peice of loot would drop. However, blizzard did state at some point that 25 man would drop more loot per player than 10 man. So they did cover their basis on this. I don't know if it is the same on 10 man(again I only did a handful of 10s over the holidays and never saw it happen) but we have had 2 weeks now where we have had the same 3 cloth hats drop from valiona and theralion, so that could be offsetting to a small degree. Or maybe it was just our dumb luck lol.
Image
exiledknight
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:26 am

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby inthedrops » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:36 pm

exiledknight wrote:
Belloc wrote:
exiledknight wrote:The VP is different, but loot is the same, 2 items in 10 man 5 in 25, 1 per every 5 people in the raid. As far as boss areas being smaller, this is not anything I noticed over the holidays when we were stuck doing 10 mans.

Loot is not the same on heroic. 10-man heroic drops 2 items, 25-man drops 6 items at a chance at 1-2 heroic tier tokens.
2 vs 6-8. If 10-man had a chance at 1 token (or just 1 guaranteed), I'd call loot balanced.


Was unaware of the heroic drops on 10 man, I had figured one more peice of loot would drop. However, blizzard did state at some point that 25 man would drop more loot per player than 10 man. So they did cover their basis on this. I don't know if it is the same on 10 man(again I only did a handful of 10s over the holidays and never saw it happen) but we have had 2 weeks now where we have had the same 3 cloth hats drop from valiona and theralion, so that could be offsetting to a small degree. Or maybe it was just our dumb luck lol.


I'm in a 25 man guild and I think it's not right that 10 heroic doesn't also randomly drop a chest token on Halfus. That makes no sense to me. It should.

I quoted the above poster because while more loot does drop on 25, man it is a bitch to get it to be useful! For example, I was tanking Valiona & Theralion in hopes that the helm would drop. We have another warrior tank who needed the stam trinket but I tanked anyway. He sat. Guess what dropped? Two stam trinkets. I already had mine, and so did another offspec tank. Yeah for worthless loot.

We see lots of double/triple/repeating drops.

I'm not trying to say that 10's aren't at a disadvantage. That's not my point at all (except that I agree with the heroic chest token as mentioned above). I have no strong opinion otherwise. But I am saying it's not as rosy as one might think on 25 without some RNG in your favor. Guess that goes both ways just as well.
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby theothersteve7 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:47 pm

inthedrops wrote:We see lots of double/triple/repeating drops.


Strictly speaking this is worse for 10-mans than 25-mans. Think about it. If you had a 100-man raid with 20 pieces of loot, you'd certainly have someone of every spec, and you're more likely that someone amongst the mass matches the gear category. The 10-man than can use caster plate, tank plate, dps plate, caster leather, phys leather, caster mail, phys mail, spirit cloth, and hit cloth is pretty rare.

There's no reason to have a loot disparity of that magnitude. Extra VP is fine, a grind is a grind, but an extra 30% gear, including pieces that don't otherwise exist? That's, well, roughly like what raiding had been like previously.

My main problem with the current system is that it's impossible to get heroic tier (bar head and shoulders) if you're a ten-man raider. That's just poor design. Meh, they'll fix it, I hope.
Moo.
theothersteve7
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:45 am

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:05 pm

I'm sure they will fix it, along with the difficulty concerns (which you can see plenty of, including from the top 10-man guilds, on the official forums)... it's just a matter of people bringing up how big of an issue it actually is.

In other words, it probably won't be fixed for this tier until it's too late. Hopefully the next tier will be better.
User avatar
Belloc
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 pm
Location: Silent Earth

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Vort » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:03 pm

It's really an insult tbh. The reason I came back for Cata (along with 7 or so of our Guild) was to do 10 man raiding, Blizzard said that it would be equal to the 25 man content in terms of scaling and gear. That's the thing that brought me back to the game in general, wrath was a zergfest and boring as hell. I disliked giant 40 man raids in vanilla, 25 man raids were a bit better but I enjoyed raiding with 9 people that I knew rather than 24 others, some of which I only knew by Character name alone. Does Blizzard actually have a reason why the encounters and loot is being handled in this fashion? To me it just seems like neglect.

I don't want to be given a free ride, but at least I'd like to given a level playing field.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:30 pm

Vort wrote:It's really an insult tbh. The reason I came back for Cata (along with 7 or so of our Guild) was to do 10 man raiding, Blizzard said that it would be equal to the 25 man content in terms of scaling and gear. That's the thing that brought me back to the game in general, wrath was a zergfest and boring as hell. I disliked giant 40 man raids in vanilla, 25 man raids were a bit better but I enjoyed raiding with 9 people that I knew rather than 24 others, some of which I only knew by Character name alone. Does Blizzard actually have a reason why the encounters and loot is being handled in this fashion? To me it just seems like neglect.

I don't want to be given a free ride, but at least I'd like to given a level playing field.

25-man has extra loot due to the added difficulty in organizing and running a 25-man raid. There's really nothing wrong with this, in my opinion, because it really is harder to set up a functional, good 25-man raid. However, it's not hard enough to justify 2 pieces of loot vs a possible 8. 3 vs 8, sure. And keep the extra Valor Points as well. But the rest of the imbalances are not acceptable.

The tuning differences are probably the result of insufficient time or inadequate beta testing (No, I don't have numbers to back up anything regarding balance issues, but there are numbers and mechanics that I've seen mentioned by others that support the idea that 10-mans are not properly balanced. I'm not going to provide numbers but other people have and will, just not necessarily in this thread).

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the problems are simply honest oversights. I don't expect these problems to persist in the next tier. I'm certainly willing to give Blizzard that chance.
User avatar
Belloc
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 pm
Location: Silent Earth

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Vort » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:41 pm

Right on the nail Belloc, we can only hope it gets solved soon. It probably won't by the end of this tier which is a big dissapointment for my guild, we have no intentions to raid 25.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Faro » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:46 pm

Is someone really trying to argue that Heroic Halfus is the same difficulty in 10m that it is in 25m? Is that honestly what's happening here?
"Safiyas, if you don't stop screwing up I'm going to replace you with someone that has a Y chromosome." -Laethalas
Nikachelle on the Jewelcrafting Nerf- "Called my boyfriend up and told him. Think I ruined his day. :s"
Image
Faro
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 2:30 pm

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Meloree » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:43 pm

Faro wrote:Is someone really trying to argue that Heroic Halfus is the same difficulty in 10m that it is in 25m? Is that honestly what's happening here?


No, sir. I have, however, asked for people to validate their assertions before calling them facts. It's an inflammatory type of thread to begin with.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Faro » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:19 pm

Meloree wrote:
Faro wrote:Is someone really trying to argue that Heroic Halfus is the same difficulty in 10m that it is in 25m? Is that honestly what's happening here?


No, sir. I have, however, asked for people to validate their assertions before calling them facts. It's an inflammatory type of thread to begin with.


Just checking. Well, I guess for the sake of making this thread productive (if we're comparing 10m to 25m) I can give numbers for drake auto attacks. Each drake swings for 50-55k, with halfus swinging for really low numbers (20k?). I'm told these are about the same as 25mH numbers, I wouldn't know as we won't be pulling H:Halfus 25 until next week.

The reason people are stating that H:Halfus is easier in 25m is because bringing the comparable number of 10m tanks (3 in 10, 5 in 25) enables 25m players to release all of the dragons at once. Those of us that have done H:Halfus 10 hear stories about other guilds releasing all of the dragons at once and just off tanking them while the raid burns the boss. And frankly, I think it's perfectly understandable to be mad at that. Heroic Halfus has the same problem that Heroic OS did. It's easier in 25m because you can give assign multiple jobs to different people. Right now there's just too much going on at the start for a kill to come off of anything but good RNG.
"Safiyas, if you don't stop screwing up I'm going to replace you with someone that has a Y chromosome." -Laethalas
Nikachelle on the Jewelcrafting Nerf- "Called my boyfriend up and told him. Think I ruined his day. :s"
Image
Faro
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 2:30 pm

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Meloree » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:56 am

Faro wrote:
Meloree wrote:
Faro wrote:Is someone really trying to argue that Heroic Halfus is the same difficulty in 10m that it is in 25m? Is that honestly what's happening here?


No, sir. I have, however, asked for people to validate their assertions before calling them facts. It's an inflammatory type of thread to begin with.


Just checking. Well, I guess for the sake of making this thread productive (if we're comparing 10m to 25m) I can give numbers for drake auto attacks. Each drake swings for 50-55k, with halfus swinging for really low numbers (20k?). I'm told these are about the same as 25mH numbers, I wouldn't know as we won't be pulling H:Halfus 25 until next week.

The reason people are stating that H:Halfus is easier in 25m is because bringing the comparable number of 10m tanks (3 in 10, 5 in 25) enables 25m players to release all of the dragons at once. Those of us that have done H:Halfus 10 hear stories about other guilds releasing all of the dragons at once and just off tanking them while the raid burns the boss. And frankly, I think it's perfectly understandable to be mad at that. Heroic Halfus has the same problem that Heroic OS did. It's easier in 25m because you can give assign multiple jobs to different people. Right now there's just too much going on at the start for a kill to come off of anything but good RNG.


For reference, Heroic Halfus 25 hits, on me, for 40-60k on a 1s swing timer. Storm Rider hits for up to 70k on a 2s swing timer. The other drakes are similar on other tanks. We don't OT all the drakes in 25-man, but we OT two of them. We kill two+whelps. To be fair, we also only use 4 tanks.

That there may be a strategy difference between the optimal path in any given 10-man fight, and any given 25-man fight does not necessarily imply that one is "harder". That part depends on numbers.

And, further, heroic Halfus may well be "harder" on 10s than 25s. It probably is, given the way so many people are so vehement about believing it, but you can't generalize from that to other encounters, which is something that people seem to desperately want to do. I just don't support assertions as evidence.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:28 pm

We probably haven't had a good sampling of different encounters on both 10 and 25; Halfus is gimmicky and a lot of the early bosses are likely to be less well balanced (between 10 and 25) for heroic mode compared to the later ones. And if I may say so, Blizzard lacks that sampling; the lack of heroic encounter tweaks, especially compared to normals, indicates to me that they're probably just waiting for everyone to gear up and provide them some statistically significant external data. As we probably should as well.

On the other hand, I still want to bitch about the loot disparity. :D
Moo.
theothersteve7
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:45 am

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Faro » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:48 pm

Meloree wrote:And, further, heroic Halfus may well be "harder" on 10s than 25s. It probably is, given the way so many people are so vehement about believing it, but you can't generalize from that to other encounters, which is something that people seem to desperately want to do. I just don't support assertions as evidence.


Anyone saying that all 10m hardmodes are harder than 25m hardmodes should be shot. Same the other way around.
"Safiyas, if you don't stop screwing up I'm going to replace you with someone that has a Y chromosome." -Laethalas
Nikachelle on the Jewelcrafting Nerf- "Called my boyfriend up and told him. Think I ruined his day. :s"
Image
Faro
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 2:30 pm

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Vort » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:29 pm

Faro wrote:Anyone saying that all 10m hardmodes are harder than 25m hardmodes should be shot. Same the other way around.


It's not one way or the other, some fights are harder on 25 and some harder on 10. It's due to tuning that in all honesty hasn't really been done yet.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby ruke » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:15 am

I run a modest 4/13H 10man guild at the moment. Many of us are Death's Demise/Light of Dawn etc from Wrath and I would venture the current 10M heroic difficulty is definitely overtuned on several fights.

The really overlooked issue is the number of raid wide damage reduction cooldowns available to most compositions. Simply put, the number of Divine Guardians, Pain Supressions, Power Word Barriers, Aura Masteries, Divine Hymns, Tranquilities, Hymn of Hyopes, Mana Tides, and other huge cooldowns is limited in 10M based on player availability. With a larger raid size it is possible to double stack these cooldowns on specific abilities or roll them for a much longer period of time. 10Ms are brutal on composition because of this. I truly feel sorry for the 10M with no Paladin tank and no Paladin healer at the moment.

In regards to stacking: It's easy to say that they could just recruit more but 10M recruiting at the moment is fairly rough. Most players in 10M want to start (like all raiders) and do not enjoy sitting. Stacking comp is all good for progression but at what point is the guild's roster ridiculous to the point of just going ahead and doing 25s? My guild has 14 raiders at the moment and we're looking at getting two more for composition needs (we have no DK at all). Fights that dictate a specific spec from a class or two are much more likely to screw over the unlucky 10M.

Anyway, general gripe aside here are some specific examples of what I am getting at that we have encountered:
H. Maloriak without a Warrior tank : Possible, but threat generally an issue.
H. Chimaeron with no mage, rogue, or druid tank and only 10 players so everyone's dead quick. Generally, if this happens, he will eat up the raid pretty quick unless one of the tanks gets real lucky.
H. Chimaeron without a third melee dps or healer to taunt the boss and eat break.
No 3rd tank for H. Halfus initially, had to recruit a whole new tank for that and Chimaeron.
Less available mana CDs. (Always bring the Spriest on healing intensive fights for the extra Hymn of Hope, rough without him).

These are just a few I've run up against. It may very well be that 10M Heroics could be equal difficulty IF a raid had access to about 16-18 player of any class/spec that they desired. Unfortunately for the average 10M guild that fields between 11-15 players this just is not possible.
ruke
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:47 am

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm Raids (T11+)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?