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10 vs 25 difficulty

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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Meloree » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:35 am

Astronomic wrote:Assuming a standard 10-man is 2 tanks 3 healers and your standard 25 is 2 tanks ~7healers moving 1 dps to tank in a 10 man would be the equivelant of having 3 dps move to tanks in a 25 man. Having 3 tanks in a 10-man is a MUCH bigger impact on the raid than 3 tanking a 25 man.


The other half of the story is that moving to one tank in a 10 man is a much bigger impact on the raid in a 10 man than a 25. It works both ways, and tends to support the argument that it's easier to out-comp a 10 man. Note that the 3-tank fight in question has most guilds using 5 tanks in 25man, which is equivalent to moving a 10 man to 3 tanks (your words).

In other words - that 10 mans may have to resort to raid stacking does not support the argument that 10 mans are harder than 25 mans.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:47 am

Meloree wrote:
Belloc wrote:Halfus is tuned very poorly for 10-man difficulty. It's almost not worth attempting, especially if you can't bring 3 tanks.


I don't get it, what's so out of line about bringing three tanks? 25-mans have been playing the raid-comp game since there were 25-mans. 10-mans have always been easier, and you've been able to get away with just bringing a standardized setup. Now that 10-mans are "equal difficulty", what's so out of line with expecting some equivalent level of raid flexibility in fight design?

Surely the logic can't be that 10-mans are tuned tightly enough to require raid-stacking antics similar to what 25-man groups do, therefore 10-mans are harder?


The logic is that on 25-man, you can release all of the drakes and whelps immediately, resulting in all of their raid-helping buffs being active (less breath damage, slowed fireballs, periodic stuns on the boss, slower boss attacks with less chance to hit, slower shadow nova cast) AND have your raid damage being healed up by your disc priests who are simply attacking the boss, who is taking, what, 250% increased damage? I've heard of guilds that simply off-tank the adds while burning the boss on 25-man heroic. Try that on 10-man and see how far it gets you.


Treck wrote:
Belloc wrote:Halfus is tuned very poorly for 10-man difficulty. It's almost not worth attempting, especially if you can't bring 3 tanks.

On halfus were running 5 tanks in 25man, thats equivalent of bringing 3 tanks in 10man.
10man is, have been, and always will be easier to outcomp than 25man.

It's not equivalent. On 25-man, you have all of the drakes released from the start (assuming you're using the strat that everyone else uses). On 10-man, 3 tanks cannot do that. If 10-man only had 3 possible drakes active, then it would be equivalent. It's not.

10-man has never been easier to out-comp on any meaningful fight that I can think of. You always have less options on 10-man. On 25-man, you have, on average, 5-8 people that are capable of switching between tank, dps, healing, or all 3. Furthermore, switching a DPS for a tank is not nearly as punishing a DPS loss as it is on 10-man. So, unless you meant the opposite of my interpretation, I simply cannot agree with your statement and I don't think many others will, either.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Meloree » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:23 am

Belloc wrote:The logic is that on 25-man, you can release all of the drakes and whelps immediately, resulting in all of their raid-helping buffs being active (less breath damage, slowed fireballs, periodic stuns on the boss, slower boss attacks with less chance to hit, slower shadow nova cast) AND have your raid damage being healed up by your disc priests who are simply attacking the boss, who is taking, what, 250% increased damage? I've heard of guilds that simply off-tank the adds while burning the boss on 25-man heroic. Try that on 10-man and see how far it gets you.


So what? That's a numbers thing, and without having done both, you can't know which one is harder to execute. The point is that 3 tanks is not an unreasonable raid-stacking request to complete a hard-mode fight. You can't support 10-man being harder based on that, and you can't really support it being harder based on strat differences. Some things will have to be done differently on 10s and 25s, that's obvious, and something that Blizzard (theoretically) tunes the numbers around. You can't state that 10s are tuned poorly (and by extension harder) because of a strat difference - the numbers might well be tuned such that it's very equivalent.

Belloc wrote:10-man has never been easier to out-comp on any meaningful fight that I can think of. You always have less options on 10-man. On 25-man, you have, on average, 5-8 people that are capable of switching between tank, dps, healing, or all 3. Furthermore, switching a DPS for a tank is not nearly as punishing a DPS loss as it is on 10-man. So, unless you meant the opposite of my interpretation, I simply cannot agree with your statement and I don't think many others will, either.


10-H-LK was way easier to out-comp in 10s than 25s. I presume one example will suffice?

Additionally, while turning one DPS into one Tank is more punitive for RDPS in 10s than 25s, the converse is true. Turning one tank into one DPS is more rewarding for RDPS in 10s than 25s. Ditto with healers. 25mans are therefore slightly more granular for raidsetup, but that's still just a numbers game. It's a Good Thing that 10mans are being asked to do some form of raid-stacking to succeed. It puts them on an equal footing with 25mans, and suggests that Blizzard really is taking this "equal difficulty" thing seriously.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Treck » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:42 am

Isnt there only like 2 drakes + whelps on halfus in 10man?
Whats then stopping 10man guilds from releasing all drakes at the start?

Having 2 of a "good" class in 10man isnt really uncommon, having 5 of "the" good class in 25man just doesnt happen unless your specificly going for it.
A big guild can easily bring 4 warlocks for a 10man raid if they proove to be insane, getting together 10warlocks for a 25man guild would require a guild to be massive.
Thats what i mean with easier to outcomp.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:47 am

I'm not saying that 10's are harder or poorly tuned -- I'm saying that 10-man heroic Halfus is. You can't simply say that 5 tanks on 25-man is equal to 3 tanks on 10-man when the point of using 5-tanks is to achieve all of the drake buffs and allow the boss to be killed while ignoring the drakes. And no amount of raid stacking on 10-man can have the effect of 5 tanks and 2-3 disc priests on 25-man. The tuning on this particular fight is just poor, that's all I'm saying. I'm sure there are some 10-man fights that are easier than their 25-man equivalents.

Not that I'm disagreeing, but how exactly was it easier to out-comp 10-man heroic LK? And I'm not sure that such a comparison makes much sense anyway, since 10-mans in WotLK, with the exception of Sarth 3D, were tuned to be less difficult than 25-mans. The fights simply weren't designed with benefits from stacking.

Again, I have no problem with 10-mans requiring some raid stacking for cutting-edge progression, but no one can deny that it is harder for an appropriately sized 10-man guild to be able to field the players for such stacking.
Treck wrote:Isnt there only like 2 drakes + whelps on halfus in 10man?
Whats then stopping 10man guilds from releasing all drakes at the start?

On normal 10-man Halfus, yes, you are correct.

On heroic 10-man Halfus, no. All of the drakes and whelps are available to be released -- not just 3. As far as I'm aware, the fight is identical, mechanically, to the 25-man version. Can you see now why I question the tuning of this fight?

Rest assured, I do have some idea of what I'm talking about :P
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby exiledknight » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:09 pm

Belloc wrote:Not that I'm disagreeing, but how exactly was it easier to out-comp 10-man heroic LK? And I'm not sure that such a comparison makes much sense anyway, since 10-mans in WotLK, with the exception of Sarth 3D, were tuned to be less difficult than 25-mans. The fights simply weren't designed with benefits from stacking.


Feral druid on LK, 2 healing with a holy pally/disc priest.

Belloc wrote:Again, I have no problem with 10-mans requiring some raid stacking for cutting-edge progression, but no one can deny that it is harder for an appropriately sized 10-man guild to be able to field the players for such stacking.


I do not see how it is overly hard to have one of the 4 tanks classes as a dps and have them get a decent tank set, doesn't this happen anyway? Or do 10 man guilds not raid if a tank isn't on or having connection issues?
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Meloree » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:10 pm

Belloc wrote:I'm not saying that 10's are harder or poorly tuned -- I'm saying that 10-man heroic Halfus is. You can't simply say that 5 tanks on 25-man is equal to 3 tanks on 10-man when the point of using 5-tanks is to achieve all of the drake buffs and allow the boss to be killed while ignoring the drakes. And no amount of raid stacking on 10-man can have the effect of 5 tanks and 2-3 disc priests on 25-man. The tuning on this particular fight is just poor, that's all I'm saying. I'm sure there are some 10-man fights that are easier than their 25-man equivalents.

Again, I have no problem with 10-mans requiring some raid stacking for cutting-edge progression, but no one can deny that it is harder for an appropriately sized 10-man guild to be able to field the players for such stacking.

Rest assured, I do have some idea of what I'm talking about :P


An appropriately sized 10-man guild should be able to field extra players for raidstacking/attendance in the same way that a well organized 25-man raid typically can. I can certainly deny that it's "harder" for 10-man guilds to stack their raids for success. I'm not even sure how you can make that assertion.

You're not addressing the tuning on Halfus at all. If all of his abilities do exactly the same damage in 10H and 25H, and are all on exactly the same timer in 10H and 25H, and all of the drakes do the same amount of damage in 10H and 25H, then you have a point. Is this the case? Or do some abilities do less damage in 10man, or happen less frequently? Perhaps the drakes melee slightly less hard? There may well be strat differences between the optimal way to kill him in 25s and 10s, but that doesn't actually make him harder or easier. You haven't supported the argument with evidence yet. If there are no mechanical changes, but the abilities do less damage, then it's entirely possible that the fights are extremely well balanced. And that's "tuning".

Note that I'm not arguing that 25mans are harder, nor that this specific fight is harder in 25man. I'm just commenting that you've failed to provide sufficient evidence that it is harder.

As far as H-LK-10 goes - see Adept's kill video.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:46 pm

Meloree wrote:
An appropriately sized 10-man guild should be able to field extra players for raidstacking/attendance in the same way that a well organized 25-man raid typically can. I can certainly deny that it's "harder" for 10-man guilds to stack their raids for success. I'm not even sure how you can make that assertion.

Smaller raid size = smaller raid pool. Assuming a single raid team, it doesn't make sense to recruit more than, oh, 130% of your raid size (any more and you run into issues rotating them in and gearing them up). That's about 7 extra people for 25-man and 3 people for 10-man. There is, on average, a higher amount of class representation in those 7 extra players than in those 3. That should certainly be a legitimate reason for my assertion?

I'm going to cease arguing about the rest, though, as, you are right, I don't have evidence. Though, I doubt you're ever going to find any numbers evidence supporting the argument on either side with fights this complex, so I suppose this thread shouldn't exist in the first place.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby PsiVen » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:10 pm

Having to 3-tank the fight in 10-man just as 25-mans 5-tank the fight is stupid in both raid sizes; it has nothing to do with the tuning of the fight. The claim is not "Heroic Halfus-25 is easier because you can 5-tank it" but rather "Heroic Halfus-10 is harder even if you 3-tank it."

There is significant anecdotal evidence that he is harder because so few 10-mans have killed him relative to the number of 25-mans who have. It's not at all proportional to the number of guilds with Nefarian down, for example. It's possible that there are fewer 10-mans interested in heroic modes, but raids that have already unlocked them are unlikely to have a much different mindset at this stage.

I have no idea. We'll probably attempt him next week, as we're only raiding 3 nights this week and Monday is Nefarian.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Meloree » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:39 pm

PsiVen wrote:Having to 3-tank the fight in 10-man just as 25-mans 5-tank the fight is stupid in both raid sizes; it has nothing to do with the tuning of the fight. The claim is not "Heroic Halfus-25 is easier because you can 5-tank it" but rather "Heroic Halfus-10 is harder even if you 3-tank it."

There is significant anecdotal evidence that he is harder because so few 10-mans have killed him relative to the number of 25-mans who have. It's not at all proportional to the number of guilds with Nefarian down, for example. It's possible that there are fewer 10-mans interested in heroic modes, but raids that have already unlocked them are unlikely to have a much different mindset at this stage.

I have no idea. We'll probably attempt him next week, as we're only raiding 3 nights this week and Monday is Nefarian.


That's just as much of a fallacy. That same anecdotal evidence supports, equally well, a couple of other conclusions:
1) 10-man normal modes are easier than 25-man normal modes, so 10-mans are cockblocking on equally difficult hardmodes
2) 10-man normal modes are easier than 25-man normal modes, so 25-man raid groups do 10-man nef, and then 25-man Halfus

I'm not claiming either of those are true. I'm not even claiming that you're not right - 10-man heroic Halfus could well be harder than 25-man heroic Halfus. I'm claiming that nobody has yet managed to support that statement.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby PsiVen » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:41 pm

Well, those aren't logical conclusions. There are enough people doing both 10/25 normal modes that there would be a clear consensus if one was far easier. 25-mans who 10-man Nef are not included as 10-mans in this consideration (Guildox for example lists guilds with mixed progression kills as '10/25'). Until we can put together a side-by-side analysis, nobody is going to support a claim about balance in a way that you can't refute by coming up with a million other possibilities to be shot down.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby inthedrops » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:43 am

PsiVen wrote:There are enough people doing both 10/25 normal modes that there would be a clear consensus if one was far easier.


I don't agree with this. As was stated earlier, it's not possible for someone who LEARNED a fight on 25 man, to go into 10 man and objectively say "10 was way easier". Or the opposite. Why? Because the fight was learned and mastered on one before doing the other.

I've done two fights on 10 and 25. In one case 10 man felt WAYYYYYYYY easier (Conclave of Wind). It felt like I could have self healed without external healers. On the other hand, Cho'Gal did feel like it was more difficult on 10 man. But I can't honestly say that it had to do with any of the above arguments or not.

In both cases the one I felt was more difficult was the one I did first. Coincidence? I think the fact that many of us learned it beforehand has something to do with the perceived ease.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Crilljina » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:15 pm

We were a 25 man guild in Wrath, who switched to 10 man in Cataclysm. Now, I don't have any personal experience of 25 mans in Cataclysm, so keep that in mind, most of my impressions about 25 mans have come from various kill vids, and seeing the fights in 10 man (heroic and normal). Now normal modes are fine, they're more challenging than any normal modes I've seen in a loong time, certainly, but so far the heroics seem skewed toward 25 man. It just feels like the fights were designed for 25 man, and then they just tuned down the numbers for 10 man. Take Chimaeron heroic for example, we just spent 2-3 nights wiping on that, and even after we got all our CD rotations down pat, doing our best to combat the MASSIVE rng in that fight, we kept running out of CDs unless the stars aligned. Now if you're a 25 man guild, and you get Feud on the 2nd Massacre and then every Massacre after that, you can have enough CDs to just keep rotating and it would be fine, however in 10 man you have to rely on dumb, blind luck. It's incredibly frustrating to be c*ckblocked on a heroic fight by pure RNG and luck, a factor that wouldn't be present in the 25 man version.

Now Halfus heroic is brought up alot in this thread, and having done it on 10 man heroic, I can say that it's not nearly as bad as the other heroics we've attempted so far. Bringing 3 tanks to a heroic 10 man fight isn't really asking a lot - if you're a guild doing heroics then you should really have foresight enough to have at least one person being able to off tank. It's not reasonable to have to call a raid just because one of your tanks isn't there for example. We had our feral druid as one of the tanks, and pulled all the drakes at the start except for the stone drake. Granted we won the stacking lottery there and had 2 disc priests, which helps a lot.

All in all I'm loving the fact that Blizzard is taking 10 mans seriously, but they certainly do have a lot of kinks to work out. I think they need to allow themselves to change more than just the damage, health and number of adds if they want 10s and 25s to be balanced. It's just not plausible to expect a 10 man raid to be able to allocate as many people to certain jobs as a 25 man raid (mostly interrupting), heroic Conclave of Wind comes to mind here. As for the space available in encounters, apparently the 10 mans have had smaller boss areas since at least Ulduar. I won't swear on this, since I was only told by a few guildies who knew this, but for example Thorim's room in Ulduar was substantially smaller in 10 man.

One thing that I absolutely think needs to be addressed is the loot though. For some reason Blizzard decided that 25 mans should be awarded more loot and Valor points per player, which in my mind is ridiculous. I can tell you that we're working just as hard as the 25 man guilds to progress, in some ways harder, since it takes us longer to gear up. With the 10 and 25 mans tuned closer than they ever have been in the past, it's time to get over the bias that 25 mans are somehow better, and therefore need better (or in this case bigger) rewards. Sure, the logistics of a 25 man guild can be trickier (I know this well, having been an officer for the 2 years we spent as a 25 man guild), but you also have the leeway of being able to bring 2-3 sub-par players without nearly the same amount of impact a bad player has in a 10 man group.

I really feel Blizzard are on the right track - but they're not quite there yet. And my rant won't even touch on the imbalances in fights that affect all raids no matter what size (world first council with NO melee anyone? 11 ferals on Neffy hc?), but hey, at least the first tier of Cataclysm isn't an old, dumbed down, retardedly easy old raid plus 2 new dragon bosses.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby exiledknight » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:58 am

The VP is different, but loot is the same, 2 items in 10 man 5 in 25, 1 per every 5 people in the raid. As far as boss areas being smaller, this is not anything I noticed over the holidays when we were stuck doing 10 mans.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:44 am

exiledknight wrote:The VP is different, but loot is the same, 2 items in 10 man 5 in 25, 1 per every 5 people in the raid. As far as boss areas being smaller, this is not anything I noticed over the holidays when we were stuck doing 10 mans.

Loot is not the same on heroic. 10-man heroic drops 2 items, 25-man drops 6 items at a chance at 1-2 heroic tier tokens.
2 vs 6-8. If 10-man had a chance at 1 token (or just 1 guaranteed), I'd call loot balanced.
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