Chimaeron

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Chimaeron

Postby culhag » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:00 am

I only did a few attempts, but I had quite a problem when I took two 150k hits simultaneously.
So I have one question :
How do you deal with the double-attacks ?
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Meloree » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:01 am

culhag wrote:I only did a few attempts, but I had quite a problem when I took two 150k hits simultaneously.
So I have one question :
How do you deal with the double-attacks ?


When he puts up the buff that he's going to double-attack, your healers have about 5 seconds to get you topped off. You should use some form of cooldown for every one, largely depending on how many debuff stacks you have. You need to have enough HP to have more than 10k health left over after the first hit. I found, personally, that with 0 and 1 stack of Break, I didn't really need a cooldown, with 2 stacks of Break I used Divine Protection, and with 3-stacks I needed a major cooldown.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby culhag » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:10 am

Thanks !
That's what I figured after thinking about it a bit more.
I'll try that tonight.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby RedAces » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:45 am

hey,

we tried a two tank tactic, one main tanks Chimaeron the whole time except when he puts up his double-attack buff. When he does that the off tanks taunts ... gets the double attack and the MT taunts again. There are no taunt DR on this boss and it's irrelevant how much stacks the MT has because he only needs 10k Heal after every hit.

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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Protigy » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:49 am

If your healers are unable to keep you topped off when a Double Attack is incoming, since threat is typically not an issue after the first 30 seconds, reserve your HoPo for WoG after the first attack. There will be cases where the 2nd attack comes far too quick for anyone to possibly react to, but if you can help out your healers with a 10-20k WoG in the event you fall below 10k, it may very well save a wipe.

The fastest Double Attack I have experience is the second coming an astonishing 0.06 seconds after the first. The only way to avoid a death in a case like this is to be topped off to full, you simply wouldn't have enough time with latency to react to it.

TL;DR: As Meloree says, the best prevention to dying to Double Attack is to be topped off, but once tank threat is established, use your HoPo to help the healers out until phase 3.

@RedAces: We considered that strat, but asking the healers to swap tank healing that frequently is asking for 1) them to possibly go oom (not the optimal situation because Feud does hit pretty hard), and 2) it is far less reliable than simply WoG'ing yourself back above 10k in the same timeframe it takes the other tank to taunt off you. You also have to consider missed taunts and hasted 2nd attacks like I experienced (with the possibility of 0.06 seconds between attacks, even taunting won't save you).
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Njall » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:53 am

culhag wrote:I only did a few attempts, but I had quite a problem when I took two 150k hits simultaneously.
So I have one question :
How do you deal with the double-attacks ?


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Re: Chimaeron

Postby heuvarius » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:57 am

You only need to top 1 tank to full hp, your "MT" can be in full dps gear if you want. You Double Attack soaker don't have debuffs, so he'll never take more than 120k hits.

The biggest problem is actually when he cast double attack then feud BEFORE using up his charge. You then have to deal with a Massacre -> Double Attack combo. Rotation of LoH and GS/AD is required.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby inthedrops » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:31 am

Synthesis wrote:If your healers are unable to keep you topped off when a Double Attack is incoming, since threat is typically not an issue after the first 30 seconds, reserve your HoPo for WoG after the first attack. There will be cases where the 2nd attack comes far too quick for anyone to possibly react to, but if you can help out your healers with a 10-20k WoG in the event you fall below 10k, it may very well save a wipe.

The fastest Double Attack I have experience is the second coming an astonishing 0.06 seconds after the first. The only way to avoid a death in a case like this is to be topped off to full, you simply wouldn't have enough time with latency to react to it.


I agree 100% with Synthesis. Also, use your WoG on the other tank too. I am very often just sitting on 3 Holy Power when the other tank is tanking waiting to WoG him after a massacre or double attack. I'll post a video soon from my perspective.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Kerriodos » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:11 am

The primary thing to note here is that the boss gains a buff called Double Attack after his swing if his next attack will be a back-to-back one, so you have about 4 seconds to prepare. So, you keep your main tank and raid above 10k, and your off tank topped off. Boss gets the buff, off tank taunts, eats the two hits (so long as the first doesn't bring him below 10k, he will always survive the second) and the main tank takes it back. Break only stacks to 4, which is 60% reduced healing. This is manageable on the main tank because the swing timer on the boss is so slow he only need be above 10k at any time (aside from during Feud, same as anyone).

If you're uncomfortable with wasting mana on 60% reduced main tank heals, we used this strategy on our kill (and have since refined it to what I posted above) : MT takes first 2 Breaks with OT taunting for Double Attack. OT then taunts for the 3rd Break, cooldowns any Double Attack used. After Feud, the MT should have had the stacks fall off and this can be repeated.

The things to realize here are this:
-Break stacks 4 times
-The boss gets a buff before his double swing
-The boss's swing timer is extremely slow

Healers should watch out for the OT getting hit by slime and top him off ASAP. I usually used my Holy Power to heal myself or others after someone was hit by this, since the OT's threat is irrelevant.

Also, be prepared for phase 3 so you can LoH yourself to full before the healing debuff kicks in if needed. While the MT tanks after the transition, I'd suggest the OT runs to a far corner, since he'll be targetted next, and blows a cooldown as the boss reaches him. If you have on-use avoidance trinkets such as the JC one, they are particularly useful here.

While our kill was on 10 man (getting some experience before the 25 man group makes it that far), I would imagine all of this translates over, but please let me know if not--I'd like to be prepared.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:53 am

Fairly simple fight on 10 man at least and I imagine there would be almost no difference on 25 man.

1. Have one tank taking the breaks the whole time..
2. Have the other one taunt when they see the buff ( assign one healer to him whole time) that healer has a fairly simple job so can help with everything. However he needs to be topped off before a double attack no matter what.

3. If there is a massacre and you are taking the breaks use your HP to top him off ( if there is going to be a double attack) if not use it on yourself. No matter what if there is a double attack he is on it. So healers wont be topping you off it isn't their concern to really have you to full on health at that point. After he taunts and takes the double attack you can wait a few seconds till you have Health to taunt back its not to big of a deal as long as you dont let your Double strike tank get break stacks.

4. If you are on double strike duty, you should use CD's after a massacre ( if he wont be feuding), and just to help your healers out in keeping you topped off.

5. One healer should be able to handle caustics if your dps are handling it right.. stack up.. Make sure the two tanks are topped off before 20 percent & try to save your CD's if you can for the 20 percent mark.

This fight is purely on tanks/ healz( obviously if you had dps doing 5k dps you'd fail) but mainly this fight is just coordinating taunts helping your healers and healers staying calm.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Belloc » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:46 am

It's been said, but I'll say it as well: one tank takes breaks and melee swings, another tank taunts for double attacks.

The normal tank never needs to be healed above 10k outside of feuds. Heal the double-attack tank instead.

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:5. One healer should be able to handle caustics if your dps are handling it right.. stack up..

Are you suggesting that the raid stack up outside of feuds? If so, realize that caustic's apply a hit debuff. Stacking up will make the fight take twice as long. You were right that this fight is on healers and tanks, but, outside of feuds, the goal is to keep everyone (except the double attack tank) just above 10k. I can't imagine that staying stacked up the whole fight would provide any positive benefit that out-weighs the negatives of prolonging the fight. Also, even stacking up will inevitably result in your raid reaching such a low health as to require immediate heals (or draining your healers' mana to keep pumping the raid back up).

So, if you are suggesting that the raid stack up outside of feuds... I suggest that they don't. It costs a lot less mana to put a single heal into the two caustic targets (putting them above 10k health) than it does to keep healing the entire raid. And there's the fact that everyone is missing most of their attacks for most of the fight if they're stacked up.

Let me know if I'm missing something.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby inthedrops » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:50 am

I'm honestly not sure which strategy is the better one:

1. Off tank soaks all double attacks.
2. Tanks share breaks.

I've killed him twice on 25 with a solid one shot last night. We learned the first kill using approach 2 and stuck with it since it worked. We were fully prepared to switch to approach 1 if it looked like tank deaths would be an issue.

The only issue we had is the following:
Sometimes he has double attack up at the end of a Feud, he does his massacre, and then he double attacks followed by a melee within a less than 0.5 a second. And the tank will die instantly.

But we solved this by simply saving Guardian Spirit for this case. All you have to do if you're the tank in this situation, is see if his double attack is up while he's casting feud. And call out for GS before massacre ends.

Also, after reflecting a lot on what it would mean to go to approach 1, I honestly think it'll be a lot of hassle. The first reason is because often double attack sits there for a long time while we wait for Feud. So the "off tank" might have agro for a long period of time in those situations. It just seems like it might confuse healers compared to the very consistent taunting strategy used in approach 2. The second reason is that in either case you still need only one tank topped off. The only time they both need to be topped off is during the taunt transition. And because these times are known in advance, it's very easy to top one off when he's counting down his taunt (as I do, 3, 2, 1, etc.)

So while I have never tried approach 1, I feel that approach 2 is more predicable and for my guild that means better execution.

Here's a video of the kill I did yesterday where we utilize approach 2

For approach 2 the taunt strategy is very simple:
1. Always taunt after the first massacre following a Feud (Not the one that happens at the end of Feud, but the one after that). If it's on the pull, just taunt after the first massacre.
2. Always taunt at the end of Feud.

With this approach, you will end up with an even spread of break on the two tanks, and break will always be reset for the next tank taunting. Sometimes the second tank (me in the video) can end up with three breaks, but that's a timing thing that can probably be corrected.

Because the amount of Massacre's can be intermittent between each Feud, this approach still works. You just end up swapping who's tanking after a Feud or not.

Most of the time, the current tank has only two breaks before the next tank taunts.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Treck » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:29 pm

Kerriodos wrote:If you're uncomfortable with wasting mana on 60% reduced main tank heals, we used this strategy on our kill (and have since refined it to what I posted above) : MT takes first 2 Breaks with OT taunting for Double Attack. OT then taunts for the 3rd Break, cooldowns any Double Attack used. After Feud, the MT should have had the stacks fall off and this can be repeated.

Break does NOT reduce Healing taken, but healing DONE.

Meaning WoG healing is worse than normal, but also DKs will suffer from this debuff with their heal/shield, as will Druids with their selfheal (iirc) and Warriors with enraged regeneration. But healers will have no problem getting you up again.
As others have said you will want CDs for 2xBreak or more to survive the 2x attacks.
Taunting back and forth between 2 tanks is prolly stressfull for the healers, topping both tanks at the same time after a massacre, but on the other hand since that tank wont be having any stacks he should be fine by just getting topped off.
But tanks do have CDs to use, and on this fight its not about using a CD to ease it for the healers, its about dying or not.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby sculder » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:44 am

I've found the two tank strategy to work the best, because of an eventual lack of cooldowns to deal with the double strike. Everything went much more smoothly, and it freed up my WOGs to hit people who were sub 10% before they died :)
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby inthedrops » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:59 am

sculder wrote:I've found the two tank strategy to work the best, because of an eventual lack of cooldowns to deal with the double strike. Everything went much more smoothly, and it freed up my WOGs to hit people who were sub 10% before they died :)


Which strategy was that? They both use two tanks.
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