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Hour of twilight Heroics.

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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Zobel » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:33 am

Flex wrote:My experience with the first two ICC says otherwise and HoR was solely based on PuG healer ability. Judging by a the same server healer we had last night going "wow real DPS" when we did an Hour of Twilight after the raid, things can be bad.

Judging from last night's experience, the difficulty of Peroth'arn (first boss in the Well of Eternity) depends entirely on the healer's ability/inability to hide from the eyes (to avoid death).
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Amirya » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:41 pm

The hardest part of these, for me, as a tank, is to move the bosses just enough that the ranged dps don't have to sprint across the map, while it's far enough that the melee don't blindly stand in stupid (though, that can be entertaining in itself).

Haven't tried healing them yet.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Flex » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:48 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:With the introduction of LFR perhaps we'll see more granularity across the board in MoP. One can hope.


MoP looks to be pre-heroic 5 mans to level 90 heroics then it branches off. Dedicated groups go in to normal raids then to heroic raids and everyone else can do the raid finder if they want progression. With the addition of a third raid difficulty that doesn't require set times or a steady group it will be the first time where "everyone can raid" is true. Oh, forgot the challenge speed runs mode and gear normalization, that could be interesting.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:49 pm

Nikachelle wrote:It seems to me the only thing that raiders are the "target audience for" anymore is heroic raids. Seriously, is that all we get? Everything else is the target audience for "another group", but don't worry, we get heroic raids.


I would suspect that if you knew the real numbers (yes, I'm only guessing) the effort put into heroic raiding is more of the work than the proportion of the playerbase that heroic-level raiders are, so I'm surprised you still get to keep that as it is.

Fact is, if you estimate heroic-level raiders as 10% of the playerbase (I think that's a generous estimate), then 90% of the game may have a target demographic that isn't you. Heroic-level raids could be seen as 10-15% of what's available, so that's actually not bad.

I know, you don't have to like it, but, the game is a *business*, and they're not going to set difficulty to make 10% of the playerbase happier, and piss off the other 90%. They upped difficulty in Cata for heroic 5-mans and normal difficulty raids, and figured out they made a mistake when casuals left in great numbers. 4.3 is trying a new baseline for 5-man heroic and normal raid difficulty, and I think it's going to make more people happy than not. Maybe not people that post here, but overall.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:54 pm

mavfin wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:It seems to me the only thing that raiders are the "target audience for" anymore is heroic raids. Seriously, is that all we get? Everything else is the target audience for "another group", but don't worry, we get heroic raids.


I would suspect that if you knew the real numbers (yes, I'm only guessing) the effort put into heroic raiding is more of the work than the proportion of the playerbase that heroic-level raiders are, so I'm surprised you still get to keep that as it is.

Fact is, if you estimate heroic-level raiders as 10% of the playerbase (I think that's a generous estimate), then 90% of the game may have a target demographic that isn't you. Heroic-level raids could be seen as 10-15% of what's available, so that's actually not bad.

I know, you don't have to like it, but, the game is a *business*, and they're not going to set difficulty to make 10% of the playerbase happier, and piss off the other 90%. They upped difficulty in Cata for heroic 5-mans and normal difficulty raids, and figured out they made a mistake when casuals left in far greater numbers than hardcores. 4.3 is trying a new baseline for 5-man heroic and normal raid difficulty, and I think it's going to make more people happy than not. Maybe not people that post here, but overall.


Meh? The new heroics aren't dirt easy unless you outgear them. They feel like they're tuned for people in approx 353-359 gear. The issue IMO is people coming in with 378s from Firelands and stomping all over them.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Flex » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:57 pm

when the pug healer gives us a "finally real dps" comment I just take it as a sign that things aren't so rosy.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:58 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Meh? The new heroics aren't dirt easy unless you outgear them. They feel like they're tuned for people in approx 353-359 gear. The issue IMO is people coming in with 378s from Firelands and stomping all over them.

Disagree. I've done them (well, the first one so far) on my crummy geared priest and it wasn't strenuous either. Heroics at the start of Cataclysm were more difficult in my opinion.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Flex » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:02 pm

Nikachelle wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Meh? The new heroics aren't dirt easy unless you outgear them. They feel like they're tuned for people in approx 353-359 gear. The issue IMO is people coming in with 378s from Firelands and stomping all over them.

Disagree. I've done them (well, the first one so far) on my crummy geared priest and it wasn't strenuous either. Heroics at the start of Cataclysm were more difficult in my opinion.


If it is the priest in your signature your definition of crummy gear is vastly different than mine.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Kelaan » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:06 pm

RedAces wrote:Baine Bloodhoof
  • Don't stand in the lava, melees can dip a few seconds into it to gain extra damage.
  • If he throws a totem next to you, throw it back.
    If he jumps and shatters a plattform, swim to another plattform, Tank has to use cooldowns.

I'll add that when Baine powers up his axe after he touches lava, your healer should cleanse off the debuff stacks you get, rather than trying to heal you through it. It's MUCH easier.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:06 pm

Nikachelle wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Meh? The new heroics aren't dirt easy unless you outgear them. They feel like they're tuned for people in approx 353-359 gear. The issue IMO is people coming in with 378s from Firelands and stomping all over them.

Disagree. I've done them (well, the first one so far) on my crummy geared priest and it wasn't strenuous either. Heroics at the start of Cataclysm were more difficult in my opinion.


366 is crummy gear? Really? Not trying to personally attack you, Nika, but that's way out of touch as to how the casuals live, and Blizzard has to satisfy them, too. There's lots more of them than there are of us. Also, you can get a lot more out of that 366 gear than the casuals who Blizzard needs to have able to finish those same 5-mans, whether you like it or not. Amirya mentioned that same point, that Blizzard can't really make heroics to challenge you, and still have casuals complete it.

Also, now I understand why people who raid at the heroic-level think you need 360+ to do T11 normals, if 366 is 'crummy gear'.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby RedAces » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:07 pm

We just facerolled everything in there, but we heavily overgeared them (391 gear). On the ptr with the gear-debuff (all gear reduced to 353 ilvl) they were as challenging as the zuls.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:07 pm

Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Meh? The new heroics aren't dirt easy unless you outgear them. They feel like they're tuned for people in approx 353-359 gear. The issue IMO is people coming in with 378s from Firelands and stomping all over them.

Disagree. I've done them (well, the first one so far) on my crummy geared priest and it wasn't strenuous either. Heroics at the start of Cataclysm were more difficult in my opinion.


If it is the priest in your signature your definition of crummy gear is vastly different than mine.

It is the priest in my signature, and the bulk of those 378 items were obtained through the new dungeon. She *is* the 353-359 gear that Sab was referring to. She's not "stomping all over" the new dungeons in her Firelands epics.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:11 pm

Nikachelle wrote:It is the priest in my signature, and the bulk of those 378 items were obtained through the new dungeon. She *is* the 353-359 gear that Sab was referring to. She's not "stomping all over" the new dungeons in her Firelands epics.


I see *two* pieces of the new dungeon gear.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:11 pm

mavfin wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Meh? The new heroics aren't dirt easy unless you outgear them. They feel like they're tuned for people in approx 353-359 gear. The issue IMO is people coming in with 378s from Firelands and stomping all over them.

Disagree. I've done them (well, the first one so far) on my crummy geared priest and it wasn't strenuous either. Heroics at the start of Cataclysm were more difficult in my opinion.


366 is crummy gear? Really? Not trying to personally attack you, Nika, but that's way out of touch as to how the casuals live, and Blizzard has to satisfy them, too. There's lots more of them than there are of us. Also, you can get a lot more out of that 366 gear than the casuals who Blizzard needs to have able to finish those same 5-mans, whether you like it or not. Amirya mentioned that same point, that Blizzard can't really make heroics to challenge you, and still have casuals complete it.

Also, now I understand why people who raid at the heroic-level think you need 360+ to do T11 normals, if 366 is 'crummy gear'.

Sigh. I actually thought Sab had said crummy gear, which is why I used the term. I can see from his post he didn't.

And your last point is total crap. I've never had a gear requirement for someone joining my guild to raid because gearing is so easy these days. We can easily take someone in bad gear and get them kited out, it's not difficult. Do *not* lump me into the Trade assholes who ask for 360+ ilevels to do T11 raids because I've never once done that. There's a massive difference between ignorant Trade "raiding" trolls and people who know to see behind the gear.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:13 pm

Nikachelle wrote:And your last point is total crap. I've never had a gear requirement for someone joining my guild to raid because gearing is so easy these days. We can easily take someone in bad gear and get them kited out, it's not difficult. Do *not* lump me into the Trade assholes who ask for 360+ ilevels to do T11 raids because I've never once done that. There's a massive difference between ignorant Trade "raiding" trolls and people who know to see behind the gear.


That last little bit about 360+ was total snark by me, and I apologize. However, as I said up the thread a bit, that priest is wearing only two pieces of new dungeon gear, so you weren't in crummy gear to start with, imo. The important bit is the fact that you, and me, and most who post here, can get a lot more out of that gear than the people that Blizzard still needs (in a business sense) to be able to complete the instance. No way to satisfy both sets of people.
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