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Raid loot ratio?

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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby thegreatheed » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:58 am

mavfin wrote:[ If you have to be bribed to do 25-mans, then you don't really like it as much as you say. Leave it even on a per person basis, and if not enough people run 25s, let the format die.


That is an overly simplistic view of the situation. The converse argument can be applied to 10 man raids. If people prefer to do them, let them do them, they don't need equal ilvl loot rewards, or that is just bribing players to participate in that format. See how fun that is to apply a bogus argument to try and discredit someone else's opinion?

Hands down, the "bribing" argument is wrong either direction. Because it's not bribing, it's entertainment. All entertainment has a factor of "bribing". There's a reward given for the time and/or effort spent. That's the entire reason ANYONE does ANY hobby.

Hands down here is the only point that matters. Blizzard wants there to be as equal a choice as possible between the different formats. Blizzard wants to cater to both groups of players, those who like 25 man raids, and those who like 10 man raids. Blizzard wants the effort to reward ratio to be as close as possible. 25 man raid are more difficult, they need more reward if Blizzard wants them to be a valid choice, and they've said as much. You may be a masochist and like extra punishment, but that's not who Blizzard designs the game for.

This discussion was dead before you ever stepped into it. Blizzard made their stance on the issue clear months ago.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby mavfin » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:56 pm

thegreatheed wrote: Blizzard made their stance on the issue clear months ago.


Correct. They've made it clear in beta that they're keeping 2 in 10, and 5 drops in 25-man normal. In heroic, they are giving a 6th loot piece in 25, but, in heroic, they can ramp up difficulty to the 'one person can cause a wipe anytime' level, so 25 can be more difficult than 10.

Blizzard has made their preferences clear. In normal mode, the only perk you'll get for 25-man raiding is a few valor points for organizational work. So yeah, the argument was decided, and Blizzard pretty much went the way I figured they would. Leave it even on normal mode. No need to let carried puggies have freebies. Heroic mode can have some extra for 25s. Makes sense.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Shamora » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:14 pm

Even if the drops are the same per capita there is still a better chance in 25 mans of having the item you want to drop actually dropping. Even more so if the drops can't be duplicates. Personally I would consider that a pretty good perk. There are a few members around who can attest to not seeing an item drop even though they've been farming for weeks.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby kazinji » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:04 pm

How long will t11 last? They had problems with Naxx and bosses dropping 4 pieces of loot in 25 mans, everything after that was 3 pieces in 25 mans. How much of a problem will so much loot dropping be?
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Neptuno » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:58 pm

kazinji wrote:How long will t11 last? They had problems with Naxx and bosses dropping 4 pieces of loot in 25 mans, everything after that was 3 pieces in 25 mans. How much of a problem will so much loot dropping be?


the problem with naxx is it didn't have heroic mode. if it's really challenging to do it on heroic, then people will be trying to replace that 359 with the 11.5 stuff
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:03 am

Neptuno wrote:the problem with naxx is it didn't have heroic mode. was so easy that hundreds of guilds cleared it the first week they had a full-sized raid.

FIXT.

My guild cleared it the first week we had a full reset available and 25 raiders. All bar half a dozen were super-fresh level 80s, many were still in Sunwell gear.

I skipped heroics entirely, went into Naxx and tanked the entire instance the week after I dinged 80. Just checked - first night we got two full wings, second night we got two full wings + sapph. Third night we got KT. Grats guys, well tuned, we cleared the entire instance in one week with mostly blue gear.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby eia » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:51 am

To me Naxx felt like it was meant to be that easy though. It felt like they wanted to get more people into raiding, and with an easy starting raid that still has a lot of different mechanics for learning, it's decent as a "raiding school" in blue gear.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Braundo » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:40 am

If nothing else, certain Naxx bosses could be used as a litmus test to identify and weed out the complete idiots. If you kept fucking up on Heigan, Thaddius, or KT, it was obvious to all and a pretty good indicator that you needed to step your game up.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Flex » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:52 am

knaughty wrote:Grats guys, well tuned, we cleared the entire instance in one week with mostly blue gear.


Not exactly sure why gear quality matters since that's how we'll be doing Cataclysm raids. A few pieces of crafted epics but no epics from heroics or non-raid points.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:03 am

Flex wrote:
knaughty wrote:Grats guys, well tuned, we cleared the entire instance in one week with mostly blue gear.


Not exactly sure why gear quality matters since that's how we'll be doing Cataclysm raids. A few pieces of crafted epics but no epics from heroics or non-raid points.


He meant mostly blue, with some Sunwell 154 epics.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Kelaan » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:04 pm

knaughty wrote:
Neptuno wrote:the problem with naxx is it didn't have heroic mode. was so easy that hundreds of guilds cleared it the first week they had a full-sized raid.

FIXT.

My guild cleared it the first week we had a full reset available and 25 raiders. All bar half a dozen were super-fresh level 80s, many were still in Sunwell gear.


Sunwell-geared guilds, and the guilds capable of clearing Naxx in the first week, were in the minority, though. You're generally overrepresented on the forums of People That Care Deeply about your Class, but there were many guilds that took a long time to master the whole place, and never mastered (as a guild) the hard modes. There are tens of thousands of guilds that raid, if I recall right, which means having a couple hundred raid teams complete it the first week just means that they're the top 2-5%. I imagine that's OK, because it means that it can still be tuned to be a challenge to the rest of us.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby theckhd » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:24 pm

My old guild moved around between 2000 and 4000 in the world during Wrath, and we cleared ICC25 the first week we had 25 players (which iirc was the second or third week of the expansion?). That guild was 4/6 Sunwell pre-nerf, though we cleared it for the four weeks of 3.0.

Either way, that's a far cry from 2-5%. I'd put a conservative estimate at at least 15-20%.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Levantine » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:31 pm

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you mean Nax25, not ICC25. :D
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby rodos » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:52 pm

theckhd wrote:My old guild moved around between 2000 and 4000 in the world during Wrath, and we cleared ICC25 the first week we had 25 players (which iirc was the second or third week of the expansion?). That guild was 4/6 Sunwell pre-nerf, though we cleared it for the four weeks of 3.0.

Either way, that's a far cry from 2-5%. I'd put a conservative estimate at at least 15-20%.

A 4/6 Sunwell guild is not what Naxx was tuned for. It was tuned for the guilds who farmed Kara and were doing ZA, maybe hitting a few timers there. The "raiding" population exploded in Wrath, which meant a lot of sub-1k dps newbies and such hitting Naxx in the beginning. Sure 15-20% of BC 25-man guilds might have cleared Naxx the first week they tried it, but of all the guilds that raided between 3.0 and 3.1, I'd say a lot progressed at a significantly slower rate.

The problem I had with Naxx, from the perspective of a casual raider, was that 25-man was not significantly harder except for a few fights (extra mechanics on KT were harder, Thaddius enrage seemed tighter), and possibly easier for a few (e.g. the spider was hard for casual 10s that didn't have 2 healers who could stack HoTs on the tank for the web wrap, 4 Horsemen). However, the 25 gave much better loot, including the BoE drops, and more of it. It made building 10-man groups very hard, when you could just PuG a 25 and get carried to a bunch of epics.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:11 am

Levantine wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you mean Nax25, not ICC25. :D

Oops. Yes.

rodos wrote:
theckhd wrote:My old guild moved around between 2000 and 4000 in the world during Wrath, and we cleared ICC25 the first week we had 25 players (which iirc was the second or third week of the expansion?). That guild was 4/6 Sunwell pre-nerf, though we cleared it for the four weeks of 3.0.

Either way, that's a far cry from 2-5%. I'd put a conservative estimate at at least 15-20%.

A 4/6 Sunwell guild is not what Naxx was tuned for. It was tuned for the guilds who farmed Kara and were doing ZA, maybe hitting a few timers there. The "raiding" population exploded in Wrath, which meant a lot of sub-1k dps newbies and such hitting Naxx in the beginning. Sure 15-20% of BC 25-man guilds might have cleared Naxx the first week they tried it, but of all the guilds that raided between 3.0 and 3.1, I'd say a lot progressed at a significantly slower rate.


That's not my point though. I don't think 15-20% of BC 25-man guilds cleared Naxx the first week, I think that 80+% did. Anybody capable of killing a couple of bosses in Sunwell pre-nerf certainly cleared it the first week.

From a simple numbers perspective, if the world 2000 guild is clearing Naxx the first week they try, and there are ~10k "raiding guilds" (which is somewhat ill-defined to begin with), then you're looking at about 20% of them clearing Naxx the first week.
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