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Raid loot ratio?

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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:01 pm

Belloc wrote:Side note: I think that the point awards cycle with every tier... meaning, when we hit the 2nd tier of raids, valor point items will become justice point items.

yep
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:40 pm

Malthrax wrote:Is it already time for "that argument" again?

I sure hope not. :) While I certainly have my opinions on "that argument", I just started this thread because I'd caught wind that 25 man raiding might not actually have more "stuff" per capita and I figured folks that were raiding in the beta could answer that definitively.

I'm kind of sad if it's 2/10 and 5/25. While I'm not going to be doing 25s in Cata, I agreed that the only fair perk to organizing 25s was to give them more to work with to balance out more churn/turnover of a larger roster. Better loot has always stuck in my craw. :)
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Neptuno » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:31 pm

where are we getting that it's down to only 5 for 25 man? most people are fairly sure its still 6 and there's nothing blue saying it's 5. The idea of 6 is that it gives a slightly higher drop chance to give a reason to do 25s (else we'd do 10 mans and get more loot with a 3rd 10 man using alts)
As for VP earning, I'm sure we've had a good deal of time not needing to do dailys... and this will be new content that we generally play to explore, so doing one per day for a couple of weeks till normal mode is farmed doesn't sound bad.
the biggest issue would be if a tier doesn't have enough bosses to come close to the weekly cap in which case the former tier is probably still dropping VP or they would cause these bosses to grant extras somehow.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Belloc » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:28 am

Neptuno wrote:where are we getting that it's down to only 5 for 25 man? most people are fairly sure its still 6 and there's nothing blue saying it's 5. The idea of 6 is that it gives a slightly higher drop chance to give a reason to do 25s (else we'd do 10 mans and get more loot with a 3rd 10 man using alts)
As for VP earning, I'm sure we've had a good deal of time not needing to do dailys... and this will be new content that we generally play to explore, so doing one per day for a couple of weeks till normal mode is farmed doesn't sound bad.
the biggest issue would be if a tier doesn't have enough bosses to come close to the weekly cap in which case the former tier is probably still dropping VP or they would cause these bosses to grant extras somehow.
People would be getting the idea from loot drops on boss kills during the beta, if I am not mistaken.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby AriKT » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:27 am

From what I've seen in Beta, it was 2/10 and 5/25 for items, and 1/10 and 3/25 for tier tokens.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Neptuno » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:47 am

Belloc wrote:People would be getting the idea from loot drops on boss kills during the beta, if I am not mistaken.

Well, the comments are mixed in the regard of how much it dropped in the past with people not sure or being 6, so at some point it changed from the plan of 6 that was posted by blizzard... if it's 5, then i guess 10 mans really are more advantageous for everything but VP (which probably won't be that big a deal with the typical normal mode difficulties we've seen in the past.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Malthrax » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:30 am

Neptuno wrote:... at some point it changed from the plan of 6 that was posted by blizzard...


cite?
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Boneweaver » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:50 am

Check me on this, but I thought the gear normalization was supposed to remove the need to push for 25-man raids? If you're a big guild that raids 25s, raid in a 25-man raid. If you're a smaller guild that raids 10s, raid in a 10-man raid. Done. Frankly, I'd like to see the point values the same too, to finally put a stake in the heart of 'must find a large raid guild to feel like I'm getting the most'-itis. On a personal level, I don't really care, I'm not a hardcore raider; I've done 10s, I've done 25s, I've done 40s. If people want to raid with a large group, they can. If they don't, they don't. To be blunt, if people need to be bribed by Blizzard to run in a larger raid, then that tells me that they would rather be in a ten-man sans-bribe, so why even push people towards the larger raids?
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:58 am

Boneweaver wrote:To be blunt, if people need to be bribed by Blizzard to run in a larger raid, then that tells me that they would rather be in a ten-man sans-bribe, so why even push people towards the larger raids?

They want to reward people for going through the extra work of of organising 25 people without having it seem mandatory to do so. That's the idea, anyway.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby thegreatheed » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:36 pm

Boneweaver wrote: To be blunt, if people need to be bribed by Blizzard to run in a larger raid, then that tells me that they would rather be in a ten-man sans-bribe, so why even push people towards the larger raids?


No, that's an incorrect conclusion. The reason that 25 man raids are tougher is logistics. I prefer the 25 man, heck I prefer the 40 man format. I know many many many players who feel the same way. But the logistics of organizing a larger number of people has to be rewarded, or else it will never be done. This is a game remember? We do what is fun (raiding) not logistics. If there's no additional reward, no additional fun for doing the harder work of organizing more people, who's going to do extra work for no extra fun?

Blizzard wants there to be a choice, and a valid choice.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby mavfin » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:07 pm

thegreatheed wrote:
Boneweaver wrote: To be blunt, if people need to be bribed by Blizzard to run in a larger raid, then that tells me that they would rather be in a ten-man sans-bribe, so why even push people towards the larger raids?


No, that's an incorrect conclusion. The reason that 25 man raids are tougher is logistics. I prefer the 25 man, heck I prefer the 40 man format. I know many many many players who feel the same way. But the logistics of organizing a larger number of people has to be rewarded, or else it will never be done. This is a game remember? We do what is fun (raiding) not logistics. If there's no additional reward, no additional fun for doing the harder work of organizing more people, who's going to do extra work for no extra fun?

Blizzard wants there to be a choice, and a valid choice.


No, he's right. If you have to be bribed to do 25-mans, then you don't really like it as much as you say. Leave it even on a per person basis, and if not enough people run 25s, let the format die. 25-man raiders keep extolling the virtues of the format: that it's more epic, and they feel more accomplishment, but then they turn around and say "But we need better/more rewards to run it!" Make up your mind. Is it more epic, or did you just like it because it was better loot? You can't have both. You are getting more Valor points, so you are getting a perk for organizational issues.

(No, it won't die, there are enough people out there not motivated by loot who will run them, but the concept is still correct.)
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Nikachelle » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:34 pm

Wow. Totally and completely agree with mavfin.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Meloree » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:30 pm

mavfin wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:
Boneweaver wrote: To be blunt, if people need to be bribed by Blizzard to run in a larger raid, then that tells me that they would rather be in a ten-man sans-bribe, so why even push people towards the larger raids?


No, that's an incorrect conclusion. The reason that 25 man raids are tougher is logistics. I prefer the 25 man, heck I prefer the 40 man format. I know many many many players who feel the same way. But the logistics of organizing a larger number of people has to be rewarded, or else it will never be done. This is a game remember? We do what is fun (raiding) not logistics. If there's no additional reward, no additional fun for doing the harder work of organizing more people, who's going to do extra work for no extra fun?

Blizzard wants there to be a choice, and a valid choice.


No, he's right. If you have to be bribed to do 25-mans, then you don't really like it as much as you say. Leave it even on a per person basis, and if not enough people run 25s, let the format die. 25-man raiders keep extolling the virtues of the format: that it's more epic, and they feel more accomplishment, but then they turn around and say "But we need better/more rewards to run it!" Make up your mind. Is it more epic, or did you just like it because it was better loot? You can't have both. You are getting more Valor points, so you are getting a perk for organizational issues.

(No, it won't die, there are enough people out there not motivated by loot who will run them, but the concept is still correct.)


I'll run 25mans whatever they happen to do with loot. I prefer the format for raiding. I find it more challenging to come up with good strategies, more challenging to execute correctly, and overall more rewarding.

I consider 25mans to be inherently more difficult, for more reasons than just logistics. I would prefer that 25mans be rewarded commensurate with the additional difficulty. I will raid 25mans regardless. I don't need to be bribed.

I am capable of holding all of these thoughts at once, without any cognitive dissonance.

This argument has been stupid every time it cropped up, can we kill it now?
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Neptuno » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:27 am

the issue is of course that most 25 mans have more dead weight than 10 mans, but really the advantage exists not in numbers of good players for most encounters in the past, but in design: before 30% heroic marrowgar was much easier on 25 than 10 because of healer:dps ratio was much more flexible going from 6 to 7 heals than going from 3 to 3.5. I know flash of light was a huge mana drain, but i got it back after bonestorm from SA. Selfless healer and healer dps talents are designed around making 10 mans more flexable, but

With larger health pools and mana theoretically becoming a concern, 25 man will have an edge on fights where an extra healer makes a world of difference depending on enrage timers. True "advantages" will be there, but it's hard to say what they will be until the raiding really begins on live. I enjoy 25 mans better as well, but I've had 10man groups that were more enjoyable in the past, so I would agree that it's what you enjoy. However, 10 mans seem to clear through more quickly regardless of loot... trash is typically faster with fewer mobs or hp more than suitably reduced. I still see 10 mans as having an advantage which is where I thought the extra piece and extra VP were there coming from. If it's now just the VP, than 10 mans are more and more the way to go.
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Re: Raid loot ratio?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:30 am

Opinions of the other stuff aside, you can't gauge anything about 10mans based on anything we've seen on live, ever. 10mans have never been a legitimate raiding format thus far. In LK they were "let's throw a bone to people who can't/won't do 25s". Their tuning was intentionally easier, and less work went into them to make them the same difficulty (in terms of raw #s and in terms of fight mechanics that work on 25 but not 10).

The loot was a double-edged sword of an issue too. 10s weren't legit so they didn't get as good of gear, but as a result 25s let you outgear 10s so it was impossible to guarantee people doing 10s "at gear".
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