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Re: Professions

Postby Tantrim » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:21 am

Palisade wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
theckhd wrote:I think the doom and gloom about Leatherworking being "required" is a bit overwrought. There is absolutely no way they are going to let Cataclysm go live with one profession having a 195 Stamina advantage over others.

Not to mention that I'm pretty sure it's not a 195 stamina advantage in the first place, it's a ~75-stamina advantage. And only 35 if we can use the old +40 Stamina enchant from Wrath on bracers.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that there's a ~70-75 stamina bracer enchant in the works, either planned or implemented as a raid drop.


Well I never said it was a 195 stamina advantage, I just said it gives +195 STA, since there's no STA enchant in Cata you could otherwise put there. JC is the second place profession for STA and it gives 41 * 3 by replacing blue gems for a total of 123. So it's 72 more STA than any other profession. It still beats them all by miles. Remember that on any resist fight an Alchemy/LW tank will have +115 to the relevant resist versus a non Alch/LW tank, that's just immense, due to the exponential returns on resistance you could be looking at 30-50% reduced damage taken.



You mean 60 * 3 stamina blue JC only gems. That's 180 stamina, a difference of 15 compared to LW.


He means (101-60)*3.. the jc only gems are 101, the blue quality gems are 60, difference is 41 for each of them used to a maximum of 41*3 or 123

At least thats what i get
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Re: Professions

Postby Zalaria » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:22 am

Palisade wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
theckhd wrote:I think the doom and gloom about Leatherworking being "required" is a bit overwrought. There is absolutely no way they are going to let Cataclysm go live with one profession having a 195 Stamina advantage over others.

Not to mention that I'm pretty sure it's not a 195 stamina advantage in the first place, it's a ~75-stamina advantage. And only 35 if we can use the old +40 Stamina enchant from Wrath on bracers.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that there's a ~70-75 stamina bracer enchant in the works, either planned or implemented as a raid drop.


Well I never said it was a 195 stamina advantage, I just said it gives +195 STA, since there's no STA enchant in Cata you could otherwise put there. JC is the second place profession for STA and it gives 41 * 3 by replacing blue gems for a total of 123. So it's 72 more STA than any other profession. It still beats them all by miles. Remember that on any resist fight an Alchemy/LW tank will have +115 to the relevant resist versus a non Alch/LW tank, that's just immense, due to the exponential returns on resistance you could be looking at 30-50% reduced damage taken.



You mean 60 * 3 stamina blue JC only gems. That's 180 stamina, a difference of 15 compared to LW.


Jewelcrafting
Solid Ocean Sapphire is 60 sta
Solid Chimera's Eye is 101 sta

101-60 = 41 more sta per gem
41 * 3 = 123 total sta gain from JC

Leatherworking
Draconic Embossment - Stamina - 195 sta
Enchant Bracer - Major Stamina - 40 sta

195-40 = 155 sta gain from LW



155 - 123 = 32 more sta from LW over JC
Granted, that's with current numbers. They probably will add another bracer stamina enchant so we're not stuck with the WotLK enchant being the best.
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Re: Professions

Postby Palisade » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:26 am

Ahhh. I misunderstood (obviously)

EDIT:

Wait... If LW bracer enchant only gives 195 stamina. But you can get 3 gems for 101 stamina... That seems to me that JC would EASILY win out?
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Re: Professions

Postby Zalaria » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:28 am

Palisade wrote:Ahhh. I misunderstood (obviously)

EDIT:

Wait... If LW bracer enchant only gives 195 stamina. But you can get 3 gems for 101 stamina... That seems to me that JC would EASILY win out?


Don't forget that you're replacing a 60 stam gem to get that 101 stam, so the gain is only 41. (hence the 41*3=123......)
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Re: Professions

Postby Palisade » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:31 am

No, I get that. But by the same token, you're replacing +40 enchant with +195. Forget all that and compare flat #'s.

303 Stamina vs 195 Stamina
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Re: Professions

Postby Tantrim » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:35 am

Palisade wrote:No, I get that. But by the same token, you're replacing +40 enchant with +195. Forget all that and compare flat #'s.

303 Stamina vs 195 Stamina

Comparing the flat numbers are somewhat misleading though

Assuming 3 jc only sta gems and a +40 sta wrist enchant you get 101*3+40 = 343
Assuming 5 sta gens (60 sta) 2 of them in bs only sockets and a +40 wrist enchant you get 60*5+40 = 340
Assuming 3 sta gems (60 sta) and a +195 sta wrist enchant you get 60*3+195 = 375

Prettier numbers.. may be wrong.. but prettier
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Re: Professions

Postby Palisade » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:55 am

Why would that be wrong?
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Re: Professions

Postby Tantrim » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:01 am

Palisade wrote:Why would that be wrong?

I have no access to beta or anything, there may be things i have missed that distort any information i have, i just put it in as a disclaimer.
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Re: Professions

Postby Zalaria » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:07 am

I'll just quote what I did 5 posts above, since it has all the math to compare the two professions. You must look at the gain from each profession, not just its value.

Zalaria wrote:Jewelcrafting
Solid Ocean Sapphire is 60 sta
Solid Chimera's Eye is 101 sta

101-60 = 41 more sta per gem
41 * 3 = 123 total sta gain from JC

Leatherworking
Draconic Embossment - Stamina - 195 sta
Enchant Bracer - Major Stamina - 40 sta

195-40 = 155 sta gain from LW



155 - 123 = 32 more sta from LW over JC
Granted, that's with current numbers. They probably will add another bracer stamina enchant so we're not stuck with the WotLK enchant being the best.
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Re: Professions

Postby Palisade » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:22 am

Why? Why insist on the gain when it is the final number that matters?
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Re: Professions

Postby Tantrim » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:30 am

Palisade wrote:Why? Why insist on the gain when it is the final number that matters?


Its the same result as long as you look at the difference as an absolute amount of stamina..

Edit:
375-343=155-123=32

Its just different ways of showing the same result.
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Re: Professions

Postby Lieris » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:45 am

JCing is effective but boring so I had no problems dropping it so I could re-level engineering. The fun I will get from having a wide range of tinkers that stack with enchants outweighs a minor stamina deficit.

It would be nice if the dragonling, goggles and other epics turn out to be upgradable. I didn't like the way things like the monarch crab and the wrath goggles became obsolete very quickly.
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Re: Professions

Postby Braundo » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:48 am

Palisade wrote:Why? Why insist on the gain when it is the final number that matters?

Because saying (completely fictional example here) "tailoring has a 400 STA cloak enchant while inscription has a 300 STA shoulder enchant" doesn't say anything about the relative value of each profession without knowing what the next-best option is for people who don't have that profession.

For instance, if all players have access to a standard 380 STA cloak enchant but there's only a 100 STA shoulder enchant, then inscription has a much bigger bonus over tailoring even though the tailoring "final number" is higher.

If you already understand this and I simply misinterpreted your posts, my apologies.
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Re: Professions

Postby lythac » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:55 am

Tantrim wrote:
Palisade wrote:Why? Why insist on the gain when it is the final number that matters?


Its the same result as long as you look at the difference as an absolute amount of stamina..

Edit:
375-343=155-123=32

Its just different ways of showing the same result.


And looking at the gains allows you to compare a lot of professions easily -

LW - 155 sta (195-40 wrist patch)
JC - 123 sta (3*(101-60) JC gems)
BS - 120 sta (2 extra sockets)
Ench - 120 sta (2 60sta ring enchants)
Mining - 120 sta (toughness)
Inscription - 120 sta (195-75 (shoulder enchants)
etc


Your way looking at final numbers puts JC at 303 and BS at 120. Does that sound right to you?
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Re: Professions

Postby Arincia » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:01 am

The problem with JC is that the bop gems will devalue again when epic gems are reintroduced. They may readjust the professions bonus then or may not but it does mean that BS extra socket value will increase in value at that time as a certainty while it will be uncertain if other professions would see a similar increase.
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