Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Dantriges » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:26 am

This was quite unexpected.

Perhaps they are only doing a test how a bigger multiplier would affect stuff.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby PsiVen » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:23 am

Neptuno wrote:or they add in bleed mechanics where you continue to lose hp till you are topped off... its been done before though not really in a raid setup since tanks are almost always immediately topped off in the past, but if you have 150k health pools... then this could create healer strain very easily


Funny thing about this: less stamina just means that instead of being at 30k/180k with a nasty DoT, you are 0/150k and dead. Less avoidance means nothing, unless this is somehow a rapid-stacking bleed that procs every second unless it's avoided or something like that. Anub theoretically punished high HP tanks by healing the boss for a % of health leeched, but practically speaking the only reason the MT wanted to avoid stacking stamina was that their survival was not of much concern.

It's actually quite difficult to contrive mechanics that promote avoidance stacking in a meaningful way. Only two fights in the history of WoW have really done it: Brutallus and M'uru. Brutallus accomplished it by guaranteeing that one more hit was not a feasible amount of EH to add, so you had to have enough avoidance to minimize a guaranteed burst death scenario that would happen frequently -- it's a textbook example of a fight mechanic that Blizzard wants to get away from. M'uru accomplished it by allowing you to stack very high avoidance against dual-wielding mobs who weren't affected by Sunwell Radiance -- basically reaching near the avoidance cap and allowing you to benefit from exponential scaling without DR. Again, something we expect to never see again.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Noradin » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:53 am

PsiVen wrote:
Neptuno wrote:or they add in bleed mechanics where you continue to lose hp till you are topped off... its been done before though not really in a raid setup since tanks are almost always immediately topped off in the past, but if you have 150k health pools... then this could create healer strain very easily


Funny thing about this: less stamina just means that instead of being at 30k/180k with a nasty DoT, you are 0/150k and dead. Less avoidance means nothing, unless this is somehow a rapid-stacking bleed that procs every second unless it's avoided or something like that. Anub theoretically punished high HP tanks by healing the boss for a % of health leeched, but practically speaking the only reason the MT wanted to avoid stacking stamina was that their survival was not of much concern.

It's actually quite difficult to contrive mechanics that promote avoidance stacking in a meaningful way. Only two fights in the history of WoW have really done it: Brutallus and M'uru. Brutallus accomplished it by guaranteeing that one more hit was not a feasible amount of EH to add, so you had to have enough avoidance to minimize a guaranteed burst death scenario that would happen frequently -- it's a textbook example of a fight mechanic that Blizzard wants to get away from. M'uru accomplished it by allowing you to stack very high avoidance against dual-wielding mobs who weren't affected by Sunwell Radiance -- basically reaching near the avoidance cap and allowing you to benefit from exponential scaling without DR. Again, something we expect to never see again.

Mechanics simmilar to blood mirror would favor avoidance as well.
If, for example, 1/5 of the damage every connecting hit was dealt to very raidmember as well or if with each connecting hit a raidwide SoC was proced one would start to stack avoidance for sure even without the threat of sudden tank death or anything close to 100% avoidance.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Dantriges » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:33 pm

We can assume that they don´t want to implement special mechanics just to counter EH and favor avoidance stacking. So seems that they though increasingstamina was the answer for a problem. Dont know which one.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Noradin » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:53 pm

Dantriges wrote:We can assume that they don´t want to implement special mechanics just to counter EH and favor avoidance stacking. So seems that they though increasingstamina was the answer for a problem. Dont know which one.

We can?
They did it before.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Sabindeus » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:03 pm

Dantriges wrote:We can assume that they don´t want to implement special mechanics just to counter EH and favor avoidance stacking. So seems that they though increasingstamina was the answer for a problem. Dont know which one.


the problem where the damage on all dpsers was too high for pvp due to pve balance
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:28 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Dantriges wrote:We can assume that they don´t want to implement special mechanics just to counter EH and favor avoidance stacking. So seems that they though increasingstamina was the answer for a problem. Dont know which one.


the problem where the damage on all dpsers was too high for pvp due to pve balance


Am I the only one who is sick and tired of PvP affecting PvE?
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Dantriges » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:49 pm

Noradin wrote:
Dantriges wrote:We can assume that they don´t want to implement special mechanics just to counter EH and favor avoidance stacking. So seems that they though increasingstamina was the answer for a problem. Dont know which one.

We can?
They did it before.


Special encounter mechanics to counter a stat which is too high is a bandaid fix, nothing desirable. It can be that they have to implement them but I don´t think they are too fond of the mechanics they implemented in ToGC or Chill of the Throne just to counter tank development.

This health increase was very unexpected and I think not many people would care if they reverted it. You don´t build in a buff so you can implement special mechanics to circumvent it. These are bandaid fixes and IMO no one likes them, not even the developers.

If it´s a pvp issue, couldn´t they just implement some healthbuff, like ICC buff just without healing and damage increase when you enter an arena or BG? If it´s a pvp buff screwing over encounter mechanics, I hope that they revert it, slap the hotshot who proposed it in the face and implement it pvp only. No one cares much for open pvp. Or if they care, they have to bite the bullet, do the hard work and reduce player versus player damage.
Last edited by Dantriges on Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Dantriges » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:53 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Dantriges wrote:We can assume that they don´t want to implement special mechanics just to counter EH and favor avoidance stacking. So seems that they though increasingstamina was the answer for a problem. Dont know which one.


the problem where the damage on all dpsers was too high for pvp due to pve balance


Am I the only one who is sick and tired of PvP affecting PvE?


No. And probably pvpers are sick of pve affecting pvp.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Sonic » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:12 pm

Am I the only one who is sick and tired of PvP affecting PvE?


No. And probably pvpers are sick of pve affecting pvp.


Tired of both. All the freaking qq, don't care. I'm tired of being the underdog in every situation. Quit beating the dead horse, res it and let it stampede over people for a bit. I think we deserve to be a little op with all the crap we've gone thru.

in my dreams though.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Noradin » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:24 am

Dantriges wrote:
Noradin wrote:
Dantriges wrote:We can assume that they don´t want to implement special mechanics just to counter EH and favor avoidance stacking. So seems that they though increasingstamina was the answer for a problem. Dont know which one.

We can?
They did it before.


Special encounter mechanics to counter a stat which is too high is a bandaid fix, nothing desirable. It can be that they have to implement them but I don´t think they are too fond of the mechanics they implemented in ToGC or Chill of the Throne just to counter tank development.

Special encounter mechanics are the very reason why we have different encounters and not just clones with bigger numbers its jsut a bonus if some favor one stat and some another. We get them all the time and in every instance.
And no, never did I mention Chill of the Throne in my original post, because that is not a "mechanic", its a static stat decrease.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Darielle » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:56 am

I don´t think they are too fond of the mechanics they implemented in ToGC or Chill of the Throne just to counter tank development.


Which mechanic did they implement in ToGC " just to counter Tank Development"?
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:37 am

Darielle wrote:
I don´t think they are too fond of the mechanics they implemented in ToGC or Chill of the Throne just to counter tank development.


Which mechanic did they implement in ToGC " just to counter Tank Development"?

Unavoidable damage.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Darielle » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:49 am

*shrug* Unavoidable damage wasn't exactly some sort of specific mechanic implemented in that instance.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13242

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:32 am

Darielle wrote:*shrug* Unavoidable damage wasn't exactly some sort of specific mechanic implemented in that instance.

...but what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? GC's talked about it before (in the context of Chill of the Throne I believe), it wasn't something they liked doing, but the encounter wouldn't work if they didn't null out your avoidance stats for that ability. Obviously, when they do those types of things, it can be frustrating to the player who works hard at improving his stats, only to have them ignored at a critical juncture. It's not a mechanic the want to use frequently.
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