10-man raid makeup @ 85

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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby knaughty » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:17 pm

So here's my roster - it's based on who was available in my guild as a retired-ex-raider, rather than recruiting anyone from outside the guild.

Tank
• Protection paladin

OT
• DK or warrior - they're both still trying to get the other one to be the tank. Whichever one tanks will want to DPS when possible, thus the MT/OT distinction. I'll never get to raid as ret.

Healers
• Resto Druid (who is also an excellent Boomkin, and will switch when we only need 2 healers)
• Holy Paladin.
• Holy/Disc priest. Played both specs at 80, will do the same at 85.

Melee DPS
• Whichever of the DK or warrior isn't tanking.
• Rogue

Ranged DPS
• Hunter
• Elemental Shaman
• Shadow Priest

Reserve
• Holy/Shadow priest.

I had two other people express interest, but I think they'r going to try and do 25-man full-time raiding instead: a warlock and a ret paladin.

I'm not running a 13-14 man roster with a sensible reserve bench because the 10-man raiding night will be run on one of the nights the 25-man team aren't raiding. My (current) theory is that their alts will form my reserve bench.
Last edited by knaughty on Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby knaughty » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:25 pm

Meloree wrote:To start with, I'd want one of each healer, and ALL OF THEM should be able to DPS if needed. Next, I'd going to want one of each tanking class - two of them are going to be mainspec DPS, but make sure they're around for when Blizzard has a fight that's broken for <class X>. Fill in the remaining 5-7 spots with a varied composition of DPS. Try to balance loot needs as much as possible (don't get 7 warlocks, no matter how powerful they are) to make sure the gear is utilized when it drops.

If I was building a progression 10-man team, that's how I'd start as well. My progression team would start something like this:
  1. Cat/Bear druid
  2. Blood/DPS DK
  3. Prot/Ret paladin
  4. Prot/DPS warrior
  5. Resto/boomkin druid
  6. Resto/Elemental shaman
  7. Holy/Disc priest (no DPS spec)
  8. Holy/Ret paladin
  9. BM/something hunter
  10. Fire/something Mage
  11. Rogue
  12. Warlock
  13. DPS - prob a shadow/holy priest
  14. DPS - best applicant
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby Neptuno » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:58 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Neptuno wrote:any estimates on the "best" healer class who's optimal spirit regen level is right around hit cap or are they all going to be way over anyway without a dps piece or two?


they are all going to be way over because there is no "optimal" spirit regen level. more stats = better.


meh, i remember our holy pally would switch int to haste cause "ending the fight with more than 0 mana means a wasted int" when haste could increase his throughput. I'd see spirit as that stat but for all heals now. If you have more regen than required to finish the fight nearly oom, than you could probably use less.
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:41 am

Neptuno wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Neptuno wrote:any estimates on the "best" healer class who's optimal spirit regen level is right around hit cap or are they all going to be way over anyway without a dps piece or two?


they are all going to be way over because there is no "optimal" spirit regen level. more stats = better.

meh, i remember our holy pally would switch int to haste cause "ending the fight with more than 0 mana means a wasted int" when haste could increase his throughput. I'd see spirit as that stat but for all heals now. If you have more regen than required to finish the fight nearly oom, than you could probably use less.

Ah, but you're implicitly assuming WotLK-like mechanics, where it is hard to go OOM.

In Cata, if the fight's more than, say, 30 seconds, you're OOM other than whatever regen you've got. Thus: Spirit = Throughput.

Vanilla was kinda like that, though the 5-sec rule made it more complex, and healing rotations could allow people regen breaks. There was never "enough" spirit - the more you had, the more you could heal.
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:11 am

Neptuno wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Neptuno wrote:any estimates on the "best" healer class who's optimal spirit regen level is right around hit cap or are they all going to be way over anyway without a dps piece or two?


they are all going to be way over because there is no "optimal" spirit regen level. more stats = better.


meh, i remember our holy pally would switch int to haste cause "ending the fight with more than 0 mana means a wasted int" when haste could increase his throughput. I'd see spirit as that stat but for all heals now. If you have more regen than required to finish the fight nearly oom, than you could probably use less.


yeah but your holy pally probably did that before int = sp
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby masterpoobaa » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:57 pm

Its going to be interesting to see how effecting chaining WoG's on yourself as tank will be come L85.
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby tlitp » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:07 am

Knaughty wrote:unreasonable list

Granted, I haven't been up there (World 100) for a long time, about three years now. I'm not really convinced that things have evolved dramatically since then, though.

The aforementioned listing has 8 "hybrids" in a total of 14 spots. That's, as far as I'm aware, beyond wishful thinking. Disregard the logistical difficulties altogether, pretend for a moment that the progression system is gear-independent. Do you actually know that many people able to perform competitively as hybrids ?
As for myself, I think that there are relatively few "all DPS, all the time" persons that achieve the same level of performance by something as trivial as switching specs. But if "two specs, same shit" pure DPS are in short supply, good hybrids are exceedingly rare.

Of course, balanced hybrids are a relatively common occurrence when we're speaking about (slightly above/below) average people. But the higher end of the spectrum is definitely more granular.
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:18 am

tlitp wrote:Granted, I haven't been up there (World 100) for a long time, about three years now. I'm not really convinced that things have evolved dramatically since then, though.

I'm only at world 500-ish.

Ask Mel what life's like in the top 50 :)
tlitp wrote:The aforementioned listing has 8 "hybrids" in a total of 14 spots. That's, as far as I'm aware, beyond wishful thinking. Disregard the logistical difficulties altogether, pretend for a moment that the progression system is gear-independent. Do you actually know that many people able to perform competitively as hybrids ?
As for myself, I think that there are relatively few "all DPS, all the time" persons that achieve the same level of performance by something as trivial as switching specs. But if "two specs, same shit" pure DPS are in short supply, good hybrids are exceedingly rare.

Assuming that by "hybrid" you mean "can play multiple specs/roles" your experience is not my experience. Most of my really good healers have been more than adequate at DPS. DPS -> heals is a harder switch. Tank -> DPS is pretty easy, reverse slightly less so, but not enough to matter much for the times you're having a DPS tank something due to OP class mechanics.
tlitp wrote:Of course, balanced hybrids are a relatively common occurrence when we're speaking about (slightly above/below) average people. But the higher end of the spectrum is definitely more granular.

Well, not at world 500, for me. YMMV.

NB: I'm not saying there's no difference in performance for most people. Just that the differences in performance tend to be a hell of a lot smaller than the mechanics advantages you can find. EG: I had a heally priest who was "better" at Holy than at Discipline. Guess what, Discipline was still by FAR the better spec at LK-hard.

Ditto "we need another healer" - the 3rd healer, even if he's a main-spec DPS, works better than just dying to lack of heals. The other thing that you do is give the "main spec" people the harder job. Got a healer doing DPS? Have him do the simple job (Blow up the boss!) while your full-time DPS do the CC/target/switching/whatever.

Flexibility >>>>>>>>>>>> Minor differences in skill at a particular spec.

As for DPS being better at a particular spec ti the extent that you notice or care? They need to L2P: Next patch some other spec will be OP.

Anyway, all kinda moot: I'm raiding 1 night a week in Cata (and not at all right now), so I'm not going to try and build a "world 500 or better" 10-man team.
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby Nemi » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:36 am

Really for a good 10 man Its best to make sure all buffs and debuffs are covered. Tanks will be balanced around mechanics there will (hopefully) not be any boss that X tank is nessasary or you wipe.

The type of guild you're setting up is what my guild is currently altho we dont raid at 3am, cause thats sacred sleepytime. Our line up for cata will be:

Tanks
Pally
DK

RDPS
Arc/ Fire Mage
Ele Sham
Boomkin (resto off)

PDPS
Rogue

Healers
Resto Druid
Disc/Holy priest

We usually have to pug two people, but they are the same two people every time currently it is a lock and a fury / arms warrior. We're a 'serious' but not competitive guild and still have reached top 20 US and 50 world. (as of last weekish) we are moving from dreadmaul to frostmane, as soon as we down HLK10. Hopefully its less fail then dreadmaul. heh.
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby Meloree » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:01 am

tlitp wrote:
Knaughty wrote:unreasonable list

Granted, I haven't been up there (World 100) for a long time, about three years now. I'm not really convinced that things have evolved dramatically since then, though.

The aforementioned listing has 8 "hybrids" in a total of 14 spots. That's, as far as I'm aware, beyond wishful thinking. Disregard the logistical difficulties altogether, pretend for a moment that the progression system is gear-independent. Do you actually know that many people able to perform competitively as hybrids ?
As for myself, I think that there are relatively few "all DPS, all the time" persons that achieve the same level of performance by something as trivial as switching specs. But if "two specs, same shit" pure DPS are in short supply, good hybrids are exceedingly rare.

Of course, balanced hybrids are a relatively common occurrence when we're speaking about (slightly above/below) average people. But the higher end of the spectrum is definitely more granular.


My guild has 33 raiders right now. 11 are pure DPS, so there are 22 "hybrid" classes.

Every melee with a tank spec in my guild can tank effectively.
Every tank in my guild can dps effectively.
Six out of eight healers in my guild can dps effectively.
Out of all the DPS with a healing spec, only one isn't very effective as a healer.

I don't know that we have any pure DPS that aren't well versed in multiple specs.

Someone (Gurgthok?)said, back in Sunwell, that now would be an excellent time to embrace the idea that players play classes, not specs.
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby masterpoobaa » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:21 pm

I haven't really been keeping up with healers post 4.0, Can someone rate the 4(5) (pally, shammy, druid, disco & holy priest) healing classes in strength for 5man/raid tank/raid performance?
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:41 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:I haven't really been keeping up with healers post 4.0, Can someone rate the 4(5) (pally, shammy, druid, disco & holy priest) healing classes in strength for 5man/raid tank/raid performance?

Impossible question is impossible.

"Raid Performance" at what?

The short version is that the gaps between "tank healer", "damage preventer" and "raid healer" are enormously smaller.

10 second healing summary: Holy Paladin is a LOT better at raid healing and a little worse at tank healing. Disc priests throw more direct heals and fewer bubbles. Druids are less dependant on HoTs and can actually tank heal. Holy Priests are still "second best at everything".
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby Neptuno » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:52 pm

id place shaman healers as outstanding tank healers now... i believe with proper glyphs and just being pro they can do great raid heals, but it seems like they're stronger on tanks now.
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby 99sitr » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:49 pm

Our makeup thus far will be a continuation of our strict 10 from WotLK.


Prot Paladin
Prot Warrior

Disc Priest
Holy Paladin

Spriest (able to heal at about 95% of dps ability in holy)
Enh Shaman (very capable with resto)
Ret Paladin
Balance Druid
Ele Shaman
Fire Mage
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Re: 10-man raid makeup @ 85

Postby Protigy » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:25 pm

knaughty wrote:I'd expect whatever the "mostly" answer, sometimes you'll want the person in the "3rd healer" slot to DPS - I'm just trying to work out if I want that 3rd "heal" person to be healing or DPS personal preference. I have some shadow priests who will heal if you push them, or I have a holy paladin who has never played ret. That said, my resto druid is an excellent boomkin, so if I need to drop to two heals I do have an option, but druid wants to mostly heal.

I'm leaning towards taking three main-spec healers at this point - druid/priest/paladin.

Due to the limitation of 5-man Heroic gear and JP vendor gear, I would say starting with 3 heals would better suit things in Cataclysm. Expect to consider going down to 2 healers when:

1) Your healers are comfortable with their available throughput considering their gear level,
2) your entire raid has enough experience in the fight(s) to limit damage taken to conserve healer mana (AE reduction CDs for massive spikes, etc.),
3) and when tanks have appropriate gear to not get slammed by bosses and their mechanics.

It's a conservative approach, but if you're only raiding 1 night a week, you have to maximize your efficiency. Wiping because you're pushing with too little heals will only stress your group and possibly make people re-consider even casual raiding. I've seen it happen first-hand.

No Mage to consider?
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