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Block-capping, unfortunate future.

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Digren » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:39 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Digren wrote: we should ignore blocking and focus on stamina and agility.

pssst, agi doesn't boost armor anymore

Meh, that word was supposed to be armor. I edited to correct.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Digren » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:45 am

Fridmarr wrote:Yeah my post was not intended to make any claims about how that meta works or really anything other than how the math works to show close to an 83% larger hit out of 45% mitigation.

I based my numbers on the meta being broken right now, since I read that while it says 5% but provides 1%, the level 80 meta says 1% and provides 1%.

Either the tooltip or the effect is broken at 85. I assumed the effect. Regardless, for the point of internet argument 70 ~= 83.

It only matters when people are doing math to calculate, for a given typical incoming hit size from a T11 boss, and given typical T11 armor, at what percentage avoidance+block does +mastery exceed +armor for reducing total damage taken?
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Neptuno » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:55 pm

yeah, my post was more on the order of the meta, but i did misread his "larger hit" comment, which is something that've read. Basing the percent of difference on the smaller of the compared values is almost always a means to mislead... guess your ready for a marketing career now.
It's just as easy to say how much the damage was reduced by block (but of course that's the stat directly given in your character screen, so why would we not add additional unneeded calculations into it?)
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:27 pm

Neptuno wrote:yeah, my post was more on the order of the meta, but i did misread his "larger hit" comment, which is something that've read. Basing the percent of difference on the smaller of the compared values is almost always a means to mislead... guess your ready for a marketing career now.
It's just as easy to say how much the damage was reduced by block (but of course that's the stat directly given in your character screen, so why would we not add additional unneeded calculations into it?)

I disagree, I don't think it is misleading at all to say that a hit was X% larger than another.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Thelmiance » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:33 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I disagree, I don't think it is misleading at all to say that a hit was X% larger than another.


In particular, since we're talking about block capping here, it's kind of assumed that the "normal" hit is in fact a blocked one. So if you're just under the block cap, most of your hits would be x, while the occasional unblocked hit would be X% bigger. That's a various reasonable way to look at it, in my opinion.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Noradin » Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:51 am

Neptuno wrote:yeah, my post was more on the order of the meta, but i did misread his "larger hit" comment, which is something that've read. Basing the percent of difference on the smaller of the compared values is almost always a means to mislead... guess your ready for a marketing career now.

Thats not the case at all.
People who forget that with percentages you always need to mention to what 100% corresponds to will most likely get confused one way or the other. Its impossilbe to make sure they guess the way you want them to after they insist on dismissing half the information you give.
If someone always forgets the units digit of double-digit numbers insisting (on his part) on always using "3" wouldn't help either.
Last edited by Noradin on Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Digren » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:06 am

Neptuno wrote:yeah, my post was more on the order of the meta, but i did misread his "larger hit" comment, which is something that've read. Basing the percent of difference on the smaller of the compared values is almost always a means to mislead... guess your ready for a marketing career now.
It's just as easy to say how much the damage was reduced by block (but of course that's the stat directly given in your character screen, so why would we not add additional unneeded calculations into it?)

Thelmiance wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I disagree, I don't think it is misleading at all to say that a hit was X% larger than another.


In particular, since we're talking about block capping here, it's kind of assumed that the "normal" hit is in fact a blocked one. So if you're just under the block cap, most of your hits would be x, while the occasional unblocked hit would be X% bigger. That's a various reasonable way to look at it, in my opinion.


Moreover, I chose that wording because of crushing blows. In BC and early, a typical, blocked hit was the norm, but if a paladin or warrior allowed an unblocked hit through it would instead be a crushing blow - +50% damage. That was the effect, that was how we talked about it, that's how we compared the damage it caused.

An unblocked hit in Cata will be +70-83% damage compared to a typical blocked hit. If you had been playing a paladin long enough, talking of it in these terms would be natural, not "marketing speak".
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Paxen » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:23 am

I'm wondering, if we end up not gearing for "survive the most damage" but rather "take less damage", will mastery be more valuable than avoidance? I'd guess there would be a break point somewhere along the diminishing returns curve.

Just found the reforging thread in the Advanced training forum, it says the break point at 80 is around 21% parry or dodge. Can those be seen in isolation, or would you need a formula with both values to find if mastery reduces more damage than avoidance?
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Steve » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:18 pm

Paxen wrote:I'm wondering, if we end up not gearing for "survive the most damage" but rather "take less damage", will mastery be more valuable than avoidance? I'd guess there would be a break point somewhere along the diminishing returns curve.

Just found the reforging thread in the Advanced training forum, it says the break point at 80 is around 21% parry or dodge. Can those be seen in isolation, or would you need a formula with both values to find if mastery reduces more damage than avoidance?


The issue isn't 'take less damage' but rather 'require less healing mana to keep alive.' The two aren't necessarily the same thing. A more predictable pattern of damage intake might lead to less overhealing than a less predictable pattern.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Xequecal » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:47 pm

Digren wrote:I'm not trying to weigh in with an opinion, just providing some numbers I see in beta.

Level 85 pre-made

Raw gear: 11.78% dodge, 13.21% parry, 34.78% block (64.78% total)

Post reforging: 10.61% dodge, 11.62% parry, 43.47% block (70.70% total)

Post gems (combo or pure blue, matching bonuses): 10.61%, 12.00%, 44.35% (71.96% total)

Post enchants (best in slot, not just avoidance/block): 11.28%, 12.00%, 46.24% (74.52% total)

So that's about 75% in T11 normal, without hurting for stamina (at 170145 health, 35693 armor)

Add to that:
About +3% (600 dodge rating) when Windwalk procs, if that's used
+6.6% when (1605 dodge rating) with Vial of Stolen Memories effect
+12.1% (963 mastery rating) when melee attacks take me below 35% health with Bedrock Talisman

I could probably eek out 10% more at a drastic stamina loss, i.e. using pure gems instead of combo/sta gems, then using JC purple gems as mastery instead of stamina, then using mastery gems over socket-matching gems, then using lower-quality enchants and gems (like the Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond) to provide mastery instead of stamina.


I did the math on this myself:

Boots of Sullen Rock - 159 mastery
Great Turtle Wrap - 126 mastery
Sandguard Bracers - (45 mastery)
Engineering helm - 416 mastery
Elementium Earthguard - 127 mastery
Earthshape Pauldrons - 130 mastery
Alchemy trinket - 213 mastery
Beech Green Belt - 150 mastery
Carrier Wave Pendant - 120 mastery
Legguards of Winnowing Wind - 205 mastery
Fingers of Light - 150 mastery
Felsen's Ring of Resolve - 112 mastery
Ring of Three Lights - 113 mastery
Chestplate of the Steadfast - 182 mastery
Relic - 72 Mastery
Mastery pot + Mixology - 338 mastery
Mastery enchants - 115 mastery

This is 2773 mastery rating. All the gear pieces are either 346 blues, 5-man reputation epics, or Alch/Eng profession epics. This provides +35.5% block. Add in 18% from base mastery, 5% base block, 5% miss and you need 36.5% combined dodge + parry to cap block. You can gem for almost all Stamina if you want, gemming for Mastery is not needed. It's even easier if you're willing to buy all the BoE BS epics, but those will be ridiculously expensive because they require 3 BoP heroic orbs each.

Note that this equipment list is missing a mainhand weapon and the second trinket. I assume you want to use a sta or armor trinket in the second trinket slot, but you could probably get even more mastery from the weapon slot, I just can't seem to find any tank weapons with mastery in what's already been spoiled.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:26 pm

Xequecal wrote:I did the math on this myself:

Boots of Sullen Rock - 159 mastery
Great Turtle Wrap - 126 mastery
Sandguard Bracers - (45 mastery)
Engineering helm - 416 mastery
Elementium Earthguard - 127 mastery
Earthshape Pauldrons - 130 mastery
Alchemy trinket - 213 mastery
Beech Green Belt - 150 mastery
Carrier Wave Pendant - 120 mastery
Legguards of Winnowing Wind - 205 mastery
Fingers of Light - 150 mastery
Felsen's Ring of Resolve - 112 mastery
Ring of Three Lights - 113 mastery
Chestplate of the Steadfast - 182 mastery
Relic - 72 Mastery
Mastery pot + Mixology - 338 mastery
Mastery enchants - 115 mastery

This is 2773 mastery rating. All the gear pieces are either 346 blues, 5-man reputation epics, or Alch/Eng profession epics. This provides +35.5% block. Add in 18% from base mastery, 5% base block, 5% miss and you need 36.5% combined dodge + parry to cap block. You can gem for almost all Stamina if you want, gemming for Mastery is not needed. It's even easier if you're willing to buy all the BoE BS epics, but those will be ridiculously expensive because they require 3 BoP heroic orbs each.

Note that this equipment list is missing a mainhand weapon and the second trinket. I assume you want to use a sta or armor trinket in the second trinket slot, but you could probably get even more mastery from the weapon slot, I just can't seem to find any tank weapons with mastery in what's already been spoiled.


The question is how much are you losing by having all that mastery instead of stamina on trinkets, elixir, enchants, etc.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:35 pm

I think that's just the mastery that comes naturally with the way that gear is itemized.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:36 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I think that's just the mastery that comes naturally with the way that gear is itemized.


Sure, plus a bunch of enchants, plus using mastery trinkets instead of stamina trinkets, etc.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Maelsstrom » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:22 pm

With the 75% total dodge/parry/block discussed above and another 5% miss (right?), that's 80% chance to not take a full hit. We are theorizing we will live for 4 hits while our healers are occupied. So the odds of taking 4 back-to-back unblocked hits is 0.20^4 = 0.001. And when it happens (and it will!) four hits is a very reasonable time frame for either your healers to step up their heal sizes or for the tank to pop a CD. I still don't see block capping being a necessity.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Xequecal » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:52 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I think that's just the mastery that comes naturally with the way that gear is itemized.


Sure, plus a bunch of enchants, plus using mastery trinkets instead of stamina trinkets, etc.


The alchemy trinket: http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/80508/life ... ist-stone/

You're not giving up any stamina. I specifically did not even list anything for the second trinket slot for exactly this reason, if you wanted you could equip a straight +mastery trinket there and get over 3000 mastery, but I suspected people wouldn't want to do that. The two mastery enchants are in slots where +sta enchants are not available. (at least not STA enchants from Cataclysm, in any event) You do give up the 300 (450) STA flask to use that potion, but you can use a 900 (1450 with Mixology) armor pot alongside it, so it's not a massive loss. The tank flask is horribly underitemized anyway, the mastery pot alone has more itemization value than it.

Also, what are you going to stack, if not mastery? Mastery is simply better than the avoidance secondary stats with 40% block and the meta gem increasing that to 45%. Mastery has no diminishing returns and therefore provides more average DR than an equal amount of avoidance rating. So it's straight up better than avoidance. I suppose you could pick expertise or hit over it, but we're already talking about tanking with SoI and using WoG over SHoR because threat is so high. I don't think that will be necessary.
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