Block-capping, unfortunate future.

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Kihra » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:55 pm

Block capping yourself at the expense of being completely screwed over for any EH checks that don't involve block is obviously not an option. There's nothing to worry about until we can block cap without sacrificing significant amounts of Stamina. If we can only block cap in the first tier by sacrificing tons of Stamina, then it's just a gimmick and nothing to worry about. There will be plenty of EH checks that involve magic attacks and unblockable / unavoidable physical attacks.
Kihra
 
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Candiru » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:17 am

Block cap and glyph for 40% DR on Divine protection from magic? Sounds like it could be a plan to me :)
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby lythac » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:54 am

I would think given up all sta gems for mastery for a 25 man raider is not possible and would push you below the EH minimum until you outgear the encounter and then its usefulness is zero. But for a 10 man raider the EH minimum should be lower and there is a small chance you can obtain block cap whilst being above the EH minimum.
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Nagrand-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2678
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Mutley » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:04 am

Why would the EH requirement be any different between 10 and 25 man raids. They drop the same gear so that would make 10's a lot easier.

But yeah, being able to cap mastery is bad design.
Mutley
Vek'nilash EU
Mutley
 
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:52 am

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Neptuno » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:32 am

i think that the reason they're not worried is that you're only reducing damage by 30% and that while you'll take less damage than say the paladin with 3% more avoidance, but 10% less block, you'll always take the damage. also, dragon's seem to be a mainstay in the new content, so block that breath if you can.
User avatar
Neptuno
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:43 am

The main thing is, if GC is so sure that Block cap is not going to be a problem, it means the "dangerous damage" is as usual going to be magical or unblockable most of the time.
It's true we will play in a world where healers do actually love a tank who takes 30% less damage at all time, but it's also true that you have to give up other stats for it. Overheal is also still there with multiple healers healing: I'd rather have a tank with high avoidance than one with high block, simply cause if you block an hit I'm likely going to heal you anyway and eventually overheal, if you avoid one I'm going to cancelcast and save mana.


But yea, we won't really know how effective this is till first raids are released. Till then any discussion is quite futile.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13381
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby lythac » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:01 am

Mutley wrote:Why would the EH requirement be any different between 10 and 25 man raids. They drop the same gear so that would make 10's a lot easier.


3 healers on 10, 6 on 25. Damage done to tanks has to differ between 10 and 25 man, what solutions to tank damage other than the bosses hitting for less are there?
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Nagrand-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2678
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Dantriges » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:05 am

Well you could calculate in, the 30% from block into EH for meleebosses. 30% damage redue is more EH. But considering that many bosses have a cast or two or you don´t want to regem for every enconer, I wouldn´t convert stamina to mastery all out. Well perhaps if it´s possible reequip for mastery or so, switch in some mastery pieces, like trinkets, perhaps some different chestpieces and so on. If there is a breath or other spell attack and the enemy mostly melees you could use DP glyphed for magic and

I am a bit concerned that our and warrior mastery hits a cap and the stat stays useful for the other two. The loot designers got a bit lazy and designed T-stuff pretty similar for all three plate wearers. They wanted mastery as a stat to juggle balance issues but I think that got dropped long ago. If our loot is designed with that in mind we could get more mastery than we care about. So pieces like this stamina trinket with lots of mastery. Hm not very useful for us after a certain point.

Probably depends in the healers, too. If you´ve gota druid for tankheal, could be in a 10 man raid with shaman priest and druid and they tried to give them that role, too. He can´t cancelcast every time, as he needs a certan heal to refresh LB unless they changed last time I looked. Perhaps there will be an ideal healer for every type of of tak n cata but time wil tell. IN the beginning I expect people to just go on.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Dantriges » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:12 am

lythac wrote:
Mutley wrote:Why would the EH requirement be any different between 10 and 25 man raids. They drop the same gear so that would make 10's a lot easier.


3 healers on 10, 6 on 25. Damage done to tanks has to differ between 10 and 25 man, what solutions to tank damage other than the bosses hitting for less are there?


15 ore people? I think they said that they want the rest of the raid pay more attention to defense. So could be that you have to run more, block more, skill defensive talents like reduced spell damage for trees (it´s a talent in the resto tree after all) and well heal more. HP got more equalized so they can throw out more damage into the raid. Don´t know the exact numbers but if there are hits going out that are a bit less tahn what´s hitting the tank, the group healersare occupied. If the boss times his big bad attack on the tank with some kind of artillery fire into the raid, perhaps even with a burning dot attached, healers can´t just switch to the tank.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Passionario » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:16 am

I expect that the general WoW population's typical response will be: "Blockcap, shlockcap. We'll invite that guy instead, because he has more HP than you, and that makes him a better tank".
If you are not the flame, you're the fuel.
User avatar
Passionario
 
Posts: 3368
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Tev » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:42 am

In regards to 102.4, didn't GC already say they were going to be adding the ability to tune bosses so that they progressively require more hit/dodge/parry/etc. than previous tiers? It may be that 102.4 isn't that big of a deal to them because in t12 you'll need 106.7, t13 will need 114.2 and so on (numbers are made up).

I think block cap will be a novelty in Cata, it'll be nice to have for trash/instances, but for raids it will be impractical for progression.
Tev
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:06 am

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Jonlo » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:48 am

Mutley wrote:Why would the EH requirement be any different between 10 and 25 man raids. They drop the same gear so that would make 10's a lot easier.

But yeah, being able to cap mastery is bad design.


Why? It's no different than capping Hit, or Expertise, or Armor Pen. Just cause it's a new stat, doesn't mean it's so special that it can't be capped by some classes.
Image
Jonlo
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:16 pm

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Mutley » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:43 am

They've said multiple times they want dps to cap hit (and expertise for melee) and after that there is crit, haste and mastery. They're fine with dps not caring about hit or exp after a certain point, but if some spec does not want mastery at all but only haste and crit, they did something wrong.

So for tanks that would be capping hit and exp maybe. And after that there is dodge, parry and mastery. If we then only want dodge and parry as mastery is wasted that would be the same situation. ie something gone wrong.
Mutley
Vek'nilash EU
Mutley
 
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:52 am

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Flex » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:44 am

Dantriges wrote:
Flex wrote:his damage taken numbers have paladins taking the most damage with this set up. Seems like a smart thing to do!


Depends. If total damage s a concern, it won´t be a good idea.


It also depends on mana mattering, if we become low avoidance sponges it wont be "good"
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7500
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:57 am

PsiVen wrote:Block capping is a pretty big imbalance whether GC realizes it or not, since if only we can do it we're at a very significant physical EH advantage even if we don't take less damage. It's also an annoyance of itemization if we have to start stripping mastery at higher gear levels... but that's mitigated by reforging.

I didn't read this thread you linked to, but I saw this coming a mile away. Mastery will end up with DR or changing significantly.


Isn't the whole point of the new damage paradigm that we aren't getting 2-shot, and thus we shouldn't be focusing so heavily on effective health? EH is for emergencies, but the general damage should be relatively low compared to total health. Obviously this can be short-circuited by big abilities that should be LoSed/interrupted/cooldowned, but in general it seems like we should be gearing with TTL in mind, not EH.

Of course, it remains to be seen if they stick to this plan or if they just ramp up damage on the tanks because that's what they're used to...

So, if we're worrying about healer mana running out instead of getting instablicked before the healers can react, that's a whole different goal for gearing. In that case, we don't necessarily want to gem Stam at the cost of everything else to get ~8% more stamina (10k on what, 120k in starter epics?). Of course Stam still has a place, since it's all we have for magic damage. I plan on matching socket colors, but I'm not sure that I plan to reforge my tanking ratings around other than to balance dodge and parry. I'll have to make another spreadsheet to see what the numbers look like at 85.

BUT we also know that blocking via mastery is slightly weaker for TTL than actual avoidance rating. You're going to take more damage over time if you shift your dodge and parry into mastery. It probably still makes sense in lv 80 content to reforge into mastery, since we're not gaining that much stamina as tanks, so ICC stuff still hits relatively hard for what I hope things will hit for, %-wise, at 85. Block capping will give healers a smoother damage rate to work with, but at 85 that's supposed to be taken care of by our large pool of hitpoints vs. damage intake.

Man, I really hope they don't screw that up.
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest