Block-capping, unfortunate future.

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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Sabindeus » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:37 pm

Minarva wrote:I think he is referring to the fact that compared to a block capped paladin, a non block capped paladin has the potential to receive a 100/(3/5)% hit if you take the blocked hit as a "normal" hit. This is indeed 66ish% larger and could be a large delta in damage intake for bad streaks of luck. However, I presume they balance damage intake to the average - just like avoidance (hello 2 shotting bosses that I can potentially dodge everything from) so I don't really think its an issue - it's just an added swing factor amongst many other things.


Yeah but as you said, they're balancing to the average. If you're dying in two swings then there is something wrong with the encounter, not your block %.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Rasmfrackn » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:20 pm

Well, what I'm pointing out is that 2 unblocked hits in a row are larger than 3 blocked hits in a row. If they're going to be including burst damage that's "telegraphed" as they're calling it now, do they balance that against taking an unblocked it? Because at 90% unhit we'll be taking a significantly smaller burst than worst-case MOST of the time. So, do they make it easy most of the time or do they make it lethal rarely?

On a more general note, if healers have to switch over to emergency heal bomb mode if you take 3 unblocked hits in a row (instead of the 5 blocked hits it would normally be), is that going to noticeably tax their mana? Will that make us worse to heal than intended?

All I'm saying is, the significant difference between a blocked and an unblocked hit for us at 40% BV is going to make balance difficult. (Yet another difficult to balance aspect, along with however many others we have.) I would rather we had a significantly lower block rate if they're going to assume we can't block cap, so that we can't get almost there or even reach it later, because that's a LARGE shift in our worst-case damage intake.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Darielle » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:25 pm

If they're going to be including burst damage that's "telegraphed" as they're calling it now, do they balance that against taking an unblocked it?


Yes.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby earanduin » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:14 pm

If Blizzard says all will be alright I'm sure it will be. With the re-introduction of "Crushing Blows 2.0" (i.e. unblocked hits), we will see 72.4% more dmg when comparing unblocked to blocked hits. If they balance us against these 72% larger hits then I'll have no significant issue with it. Although, as memory serves me, once upon a time they felt that 50% larger hits (crushing blows 1.0) were too spikey and were thusly removed ..... heck, 72% is almost approaching 100% extra crit damage ... could you imagine taking crits 30% of the time?
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Minarva » Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:41 pm

I'm fairly sure that GC has been stressing lately that the "omg breath" moments aren't meant to kill anyway, and should be lined up with a CD to prevent exactly that.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Neptuno » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:54 am

i imagine that they will make most of those huge hits into physical since they don't want the "magic tank" to be too strong with AMS out there... not to mention our AMG (anti-magic glyph)
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Paxen » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:09 am

Worrying about wether we're balanced against blocked hits or unblocked hits is meaningless if Blizzard manages to realize the vision of mana mattering. If they get that right, EH as a concept might be dead, as the important part isn't going to be how much damage you can survive (healers need time to react to avoidance spikes if avoidance is going to matter), but how much healing you need.

The horrible part of this of course is that now people will link "damage taken" in raid chat and brag about it/shout at you for being a noob...
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:12 am

Paxen wrote:Worrying about wether we're balanced against blocked hits or unblocked hits is meaningless if Blizzard manages to realize the vision of mana mattering. If they get that right, EH as a concept might be dead, as the important part isn't going to be how much damage you can survive (healers need time to react to avoidance spikes if avoidance is going to matter), but how much healing you need.

The horrible part of this of course is that now people will link "damage taken" in raid chat and brag about it/shout at you for being a noob...


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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Macra » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:42 pm

I'm hoping bliz rework warriors Sentinel or take back the changes to Holy Shield. Having to stack mastery to reach warriors block chance really takes away from the base feeling that Paladins are the block tanks of WoW. Along with warriors having crit block I think our mastery appears lack luster. I know people will disagree but this is just how I feel on the matter.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby mavfin » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:21 pm

Macra wrote:I'm hoping bliz rework warriors Sentinel or take back the changes to Holy Shield. Having to stack mastery to reach warriors block chance really takes away from the base feeling that Paladins are the block tanks of WoW. Along with warriors having crit block I think our mastery appears lack luster. I know people will disagree but this is just how I feel on the matter.


So your response to a change that you KNOW will still give paladins more block% at high mastery than warriors is to ask for a nerf to warriors?

I prefer classes relatively even. Class balance does not mean 'Paladins > all'.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Macra » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:37 pm

mavfin wrote:
So your response to a change that you KNOW will still give paladins more block% at high mastery than warriors is to ask for a nerf to warriors?

I prefer classes relatively even. Class balance does not mean 'Paladins > all'.


I don't feel that 10% inc block amount via talents is equal to chance to block 60% of inc dmg via mastery. So I think we should have a higher base chance to block then warriors and scale better at blocking then warriors. Or maybe add something else to our mastery that isn't just "you block more". I'm up for seeing math on how our 10% inc block valve via talent competes with crit block mastery though.

I don't want to see Paladin > all but I would like to see Paladin as champions of blocking from start to finish. Not really stack a stat to take the title.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Yelena » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:51 pm

It's not as if Warriors have an exceptionally high Critical Block chance to begin with, random numbers are still random. By the time Mastery levels get high enough to make it an issue, there will be some rebalancing. It isn't like the day Cataclysm ships the developers will go, "this is how it will be until the next expansion, deal with it", changes happen throughout, Wrath made that very evident.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby d503 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:11 pm

Macra wrote:
mavfin wrote:
So your response to a change that you KNOW will still give paladins more block% at high mastery than warriors is to ask for a nerf to warriors?

I prefer classes relatively even. Class balance does not mean 'Paladins > all'.


I don't feel that 10% inc block amount via talents is equal to chance to block 60% of inc dmg via mastery. So I think we should have a higher base chance to block then warriors and scale better at blocking then warriors. Or maybe add something else to our mastery that isn't just "you block more". I'm up for seeing math on how our 10% inc block valve via talent competes with crit block mastery though.

I don't want to see Paladin > all but I would like to see Paladin as champions of blocking from start to finish. Not really stack a stat to take the title.


They are very openly and outwardly moving against tanking "niches." They've done this since 3.1, when they de-emphasized Death Knight "magic tanking," since 3.0 when they de-emphasized Paladin "AOE-tanking," and now 4.0 for Druid "Most Health + Most Armor" tanking.

They want the flavor to be in how you execute the abilities of the class, now in how you take damage. If they make damage intake inconsistent across classes, 1 class will always come out the winner because it uses less healer mana.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby mclem » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:22 am

A random thought that sprung to mind; given Holy Shield is now the difference between 40% damage reduced by block and 30% damage reduced by block, I wonder if the devs are toying with the thought of removing it from some of our finishers again? It strikes me that it'd be a bit less dangerous to omit now, which may open things up for less by way of "Finisher -> Holy Shield".

What strikes me as potentially interesting would be if each finisher were to have a *direct* effect (Shield of the Righteous -> damage, Inquisition -> AoE damage?, Word of Glory -> Heal) and at the same time a lasting buff (Shield of the Righteous -> Holy Shield, Inquisition -> Holy damage buff, Word of Glory -> HoT)?. That strikes me as lending itself to have the various finishers change up the playstyle a bit more.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:34 am

mclem wrote:What strikes me as potentially interesting would be if each finisher were to have a *direct* effect (Shield of the Righteous -> damage, Inquisition -> AoE damage?, Word of Glory -> Heal) and at the same time a lasting buff (Shield of the Righteous -> Holy Shield, Inquisition -> Holy damage buff, Word of Glory -> HoT)?. That strikes me as lending itself to have the various finishers change up the playstyle a bit more.


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