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Block-capping, unfortunate future.

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby AriKT » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:26 pm

360 Mastery from Gems and 160 Mastery from Prof Bonuses for a total of 520 Mastery. So losing 780 Stamina for that Mastery. Thats a loss of nearly 10K Health. Stamina costs less than Mastery. Look at the gems. Solid Ocean Sapphire = 60 Stamina. Fractured Amberjewel = 40 Mastery.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Lieris » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:35 pm

Yeah seriously, nobody is going to gem straight mastery at the expense of stamina. As nice as block will be it's still not going to do anything when we're stunned, being breathed on by dragons (of which there will be A LOT) or any other magic attack. If somebody can cap mastery really early by making some freak of nature that stacks it at the expense of everything else then umm, hooray for them. They've made a gimmick that can't tank anything serious. If in later tiers it becomes much easier to cap mastery then Blizzard will probably put less of it on gear or you can reforge it for other stats.

So I really don't see the problem. Certainly not a repeat of TBC where block became useless beyond T5.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Huon » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:38 pm

I don't see a problem with it, even as you all seem to see it as a repeat of BC. In bc Block cap was reached fairly early, but I don't see how it affected the "fun" part of gearing (I guess?).

In my head, it feels just like hit. A great stat till you cap, then change out gear or reforge to get other stats.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby AriKT » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:42 pm

That guy is just trying to use extreme examples to prove that Shield Block is broken. 100% chance to block cooldown become less attractive the closer they get to block cap. But, its extremely powerful when you aren't close to block cap. The reality is our Mastery has more likelyhood to cap than Warriors and ours will hit a hard cap, where Warriors hit a soft cap because Critical Block continues to go up. The cooldowns aren't all equal, so his arguement is just to strengthen Warriors and using Paladins as the excuse. I'd rather have Last Stand than the new Ardent Defender.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby AriKT » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:49 pm

Flex wrote:his damage taken numbers have paladins taking the most damage with this set up. Seems like a smart thing to do!


I've run some numbers and Paladins with the same gearing will take slightly more melee damage than Warriors all the time. But, factor in Divine Protection usage and Shield Block then it depends on the % of damage that is melee to determine who takes more damage. Even when we are both block capped, Paladins take more melee damage than Warriors. But, its not a big difference.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Arianne » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:07 pm

I guess you missed this post:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&sid=1#85

GhostCrawler wrote:I'm also not sure we're that worried about paladins (or anyone) blocking, dodging or parrying every hit. That isn't the game breaking scenario that it used to be. If in later tiers of gear you manage to do it, probably by giving up on other stats, I'm not sure it's a huge danger. Sixty percent of damage is still a lot and none of those stats help with magic damage. In a world where two back to back normal hits could kill you, it would be a lot more valuable. In Cataclysm, it might just translate to healer mana savings. We'll keep an eye on it of course.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Vrimmel » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:27 pm

I don't really mind being block capped, we can reforge mastery into parry if we don't need it, but this makes me sad:

http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/58182
Bedrock Talisman
Binds when picked up
Unique-Equipped
Trinket
+482 Stamina
Requires Level 85
Item Level 359
Melee attacks which reduce you below 35% health cause you to gain 963 mastery rating for 10 sec. Cannot occur more than once every 30 sec.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:42 pm

Flex wrote:his damage taken numbers have paladins taking the most damage with this set up. Seems like a smart thing to do!

Well that will depend completely on the nature of the damage. No one now looks at total damage taken, it's a meaningless value at the moment, and its value in cata should be more significant, but we still don't know to what degree.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Meloree » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:46 pm

AriKT wrote:I'd rather have Last Stand than the new Ardent Defender.


I'm sorry to pick on one offtopic statement, but I'm not sure how you can justify that statement? Is it entirely based on duration?
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby AriKT » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:53 pm

Meloree wrote:
AriKT wrote:I'd rather have Last Stand than the new Ardent Defender.


I'm sorry to pick on one offtopic statement, but I'm not sure how you can justify that statement? Is it entirely based on duration?


The duration is part of it. Its a matter of preference. The way I see it, its just a 20% DR for 10s on a 3 min cooldown. If you use it proactively at full health, you most likely won't benefit from the lifesave. If you use it as an emergency at low health, the 20% DR is mostly wasted, and the lifesave doesn't put you high enough to always save you. Say you use it to save yourself from big dragon breath of doom, and then get melee'd a second later you're still dead. 15% health just doesn't seem enough. A longer duration or 30% health would make it more attractive to me.

Edit: Also its more that all the cooldowns aren't equal. This guy is using Divine Protection as an excuse to power up Shield Block. I played both Warrior and Paladin tanks and Shield Block is a monstrous cooldown at lower levels of gearing. On heavy damage pulls, Last Stand is better than Ardent Defender. But, either way I'm fine with things as is. We don't have a Shield Wall until level 85, and the Druids have a 5 minute cooldown on their Shield Wall. This guy has an agenda and he's looking at only the weakness of what he wants powered up versus the other tanks.

Divine Protection vs Shield Block isn't that big a difference. Now the glyphed Divine Protection, thats something that has some major potential.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Feanorion » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:05 pm

Warsadin wrote:The entire reason I am bringing this into our forums, is I want you all on a crusade with me against it.

I do not want block capping in any way due to having to waste all my gearing efforts on stacking it to the cap. Do not want.

Obviously we haven't had any official statements on this from GC or anyone else, though I do think it will be addressed as the thread is growing larger and larger since yesterday.

If you look at the health, it's hardly a big jump for any of the tanks. If you convert all the gems to stam gems, you're still going to have about the same ratios.

For a paladin it's 7 gems which I'm not even sure looking at the table he's gemming with straight Mastery, looks more like he's going for socket bonuses.


Didn't GC say that being unhittable was not something they were worried about, and it not being as big a deal as people might think? In any case, I love the idea of block capping.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby AriKT » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:09 pm

Feanorion wrote:
Warsadin wrote:The entire reason I am bringing this into our forums, is I want you all on a crusade with me against it.

I do not want block capping in any way due to having to waste all my gearing efforts on stacking it to the cap. Do not want.

Obviously we haven't had any official statements on this from GC or anyone else, though I do think it will be addressed as the thread is growing larger and larger since yesterday.

If you look at the health, it's hardly a big jump for any of the tanks. If you convert all the gems to stam gems, you're still going to have about the same ratios.

For a paladin it's 7 gems which I'm not even sure looking at the table he's gemming with straight Mastery, looks more like he's going for socket bonuses.


Didn't GC say that being unhittable was not something they were worried about, and it not being as big a deal as people might think? In any case, I love the idea of block capping.


I like the idea of Block Capping also, but only if its not at some huge cost.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby PsiVen » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:11 pm

Block capping is a pretty big imbalance whether GC realizes it or not, since if only we can do it we're at a very significant physical EH advantage even if we don't take less damage. It's also an annoyance of itemization if we have to start stripping mastery at higher gear levels... but that's mitigated by reforging.

I didn't read this thread you linked to, but I saw this coming a mile away. Mastery will end up with DR or changing significantly.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Darielle » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:11 pm

Feanorion wrote:
Didn't GC say that being unhittable was not something they were worried about, and it not being as big a deal as people might think? In any case, I love the idea of block capping.


As Arianne posted above:
I'm also not sure we're that worried about paladins (or anyone) blocking, dodging or parrying every hit. That isn't the game breaking scenario that it used to be. If in later tiers of gear you manage to do it, probably by giving up on other stats, I'm not sure it's a huge danger. Sixty percent of damage is still a lot and none of those stats help with magic damage. In a world where two back to back normal hits could kill you, it would be a lot more valuable. In Cataclysm, it might just translate to healer mana savings. We'll keep an eye on it of course.

I'm skeptical about the concept/numbers being generated from that thread, although I do think there's a wee bit too much passive block going around. There's 15% block from Holy Shield/Sentinel, 5% block from base, and 10/16% block from Mastery. They could just cut Holy Shield/Sentinel and/or deemphasize the block chance and emphasize crit block/block amount on Mastery if it becomes a concern.

I don't agree with GC that it'll somehow be "not a big deal" if Paladins start hitting it though. And I do think they'll need to do something to keep Masteries in line with Blood Shield/Savage Defense when we start hitting that point. Or even limit Mastery the stat's availability/reforging.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Dantriges » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:48 pm

Flex wrote:his damage taken numbers have paladins taking the most damage with this set up. Seems like a smart thing to do!


Depends. If total damage s a concern, it won´t be a good idea.

Avoidance streaks, block, crit block and full hit, epecially a few in a row result in spiky damage profile. Dpends how spiky it turns out to be but not sure about the size of healthpools and damage taken if you are in raid gear. Many healers will probably switch to emergency mode and throw out heals on the tank. Perhaps some group healers even switch to the tank to help. This could result in inefficient healing spells used. The fast or big hitters are more expensive.

Otherwise they will stay in One efficent heal after another.

I am not so sure if it will be a big deal or has to be acqzuired at all costs. Gut feelin is no, perhaps for us, because it´s easier.

Well he just doesn´t like one of his skills, the one minute cd, becoming more useless as gear progresses. Yeah we had a few talents that worked like this (Redoubt being situational after blockcap or Reckoning) and weren´t fond of them either.
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