PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:58 am

Sabindeus wrote:Really what I am seeing is a choice no different from the one we already have to make on Beta with SHotR vs WoG, and am trying to understand how this proposal would be different. I was pointing out the balance line because it seemed just as arbitrary to me as having to choose between ShotR and WoG. I guess the question to be asked on that topic is, is Blizzard trying to balance us around hitting ShotR every 3 HoPo or WoG every 3 HoPo?


I see your point. I guess the difference is in the cost and benefit afforded by the choice. In beta, it's a trade of ShoR (a good chunk of damage) for some healing (WoG), but you keep the block chance if talented into GbtL. So the tradeoff, while probably noticeable, doesn't carry a significant penalty.

In this proposal though, you have three states - baseline damage/mitigation (save HP), boosted damage (Inq), emergency heal (WoG). The increased damage and emergency heal states carry a significant penalty though, in the form of Holy Shield downtime. Since the penalty is larger, it forces you to think about the change more carefully. On the other hand, it does carry the drawback that Knaughty noted - if your three states are significantly different, it can lead to balance problems. How do you make sure that the Inq state is enough of a damage boost to warrant the mitigation loss without making paladins OP at burst threat? Similarly for WoG.

I have to assume that they won't balance us around 100% ShoR usage or 100% WoG usage, just because that would be a delicate balance to achieve. Not only am I skeptical that they can balance with that accuracy in the first place, but it would also make it very difficult for weaker players to play the class at all.

I guess I still like the HoPo on Judgement idea the best. It helps sew up the gaps in the rotation and increases the tempo enough to make it feel snappy.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:02 am

theckhd wrote:I guess the difference is in the cost and benefit afforded by the choice. In beta, it's a trade of ShoR (a good chunk of damage) for some healing (WoG), but you keep the block chance if talented into GbtL. So the tradeoff, while probably noticeable, doesn't carry a significant penalty


I'd bet that's a response to posts about how using WoG is a survivability decrease. The warrior self-healing abilities only entail Threat/Efficiency tradeoffs so it seems fair that that should be what we trade off.

theckhd wrote:I guess I still like the HoPo on Judgement idea the best. It helps sew up the gaps in the rotation and increases the tempo enough to make it feel snappy.


Make a second and make ShoR cancel Inquisition if they're so concerned about it.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby AriKT » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:20 am

Flex wrote:I'd bet that's a response to posts about how using WoG is a survivability decrease. The warrior self-healing abilities only entail Threat/Efficiency tradeoffs so it seems fair that that should be what we trade off.


What actual trade off do Warrior have for self healing?

Blood Craze - is procced.
Enraged Regeneration - One GCD.
Impending Victory - Victory Rush isn't a weak attack and it costs no rage. I most definately hits harder than Devastate.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:22 am

AriKT wrote:What actual trade off do Warrior have for self healing?


They are not talenting into Threat or Rage Efficiency abilities if they talent for all of the healing talents. Enraged Regen is a 10% less damage done button as well.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby AriKT » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:29 am

Flex wrote:
AriKT wrote:What actual trade off do Warrior have for self healing?


They are not talenting into Threat or Rage Efficiency abilities if they talent for all of the healing talents. Enraged Regen is a 10% less damage done button as well.


This is a minor tradeoff at worst case, and your enrage will come back up shortly after using Enraged Regen. Its also not like rage is an issue for Warrior atm. My Warrior can pretty much use everything without rage issues due to 15 rage on blocks. Though, those numbers might get adjusted because right now rage is always there.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:38 am

When did we become Voltron? I have to find that damn button on my bars.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:43 am

AriKT wrote: My Warrior can pretty much use everything without rage issues due to 15 rage on blocks. Though, those numbers might get adjusted because right now rage is always there.


But you're speced into a talent that gives you rage, it is a rage efficiency talent.

http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#LMZhZIcGdRRRkru here's one with 3/3 Shield Spec and all healing talents. It gives up 15% damage to Heroic Strike and Victory Rush or 15% chance for a free special or 10% Shield Slam crit etc.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:50 am

AriKT wrote:
Flex wrote:
AriKT wrote:What actual trade off do Warrior have for self healing?


They are not talenting into Threat or Rage Efficiency abilities if they talent for all of the healing talents. Enraged Regen is a 10% less damage done button as well.


This is a minor tradeoff at worst case, and your enrage will come back up shortly after using Enraged Regen. Its also not like rage is an issue for Warrior atm. My Warrior can pretty much use everything without rage issues due to 15 rage on blocks. Though, those numbers might get adjusted because right now rage is always there.


See this is why I mentioned earlier (in another thread? I forget) that Warriors/Druids/DKs might need their resource income lessened to make these tradeoffs meaningful.

Of course the solution I prefer is that they instead decide that we can live with ShotR and Inquisition simultaneously and just throw extra HoPo generation akin to Ret at us.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:09 am

I finally bothered to post my opinion on Prot and immediately had someone informing me that because I have a few concerns I must in fact not be happy with anything about the class at all. Gotta love the official forums.

Edit: Looks like Lawlbringer's aiming for a ban anyway, with the way he's going in his new thread. :lol:


I had a thought on the subject of picking up adds during dead time. What if: Exorcism was instant cast and no cooldown, but maintained its unwieldy mana cost? I know some people prefer not having dead GCDs at all, but I am okay with the dead time and Blizz seems to want it there; I think this would be an interesting compromise.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby AriKT » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:23 am

Flex wrote:
AriKT wrote: My Warrior can pretty much use everything without rage issues due to 15 rage on blocks. Though, those numbers might get adjusted because right now rage is always there.


But you're speced into a talent that gives you rage, it is a rage efficiency talent.

http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#LMZhZIcGdRRRkru here's one with 3/3 Shield Spec and all healing talents. It gives up 15% damage to Heroic Strike and Victory Rush or 15% chance for a free special or 10% Shield Slam crit etc.


You can easily do this and still take most of the single target threat/efficieny talents: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#LGZhbZIcGzRRRzbu.

Sabindeus wrote:See this is why I mentioned earlier (in another thread? I forget) that Warriors/Druids/DKs might need their resource income lessened to make these tradeoffs meaningful.

Of course the solution I prefer is that they instead decide that we can live with ShotR and Inquisition simultaneously and just throw extra HoPo generation akin to Ret at us.


Sorry, must have missed that. But, currently in Beta rage gen for Prot isn't an issue even using HS on cooldown.

All in all I'm not worried about the Warrior self healing though. Its kind of annoying that Paladin has the least self healing, but I doubt its gamebreaking. The only thing that worries me between War and Pal is their mastery is superior to ours and we may end up mastery capped at some point.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:24 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I finally bothered to post my opinion on Prot and immediately had someone informing me that because I have a few concerns I must in fact not be happy with anything about the class at all. Gotta love the official forums.

Edit: Looks like Lawlbringer's aiming for a ban anyway, with the way he's going in his new thread. :lol:


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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:33 am

AriKT wrote:You can easily do this and still take most of the single target threat/efficieny talents: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#LGZhbZIcGzRRRzbu.


And now you're sacrificing Gag Order and Safe Guard. So it all works out. You will always sacrifice something for more healing.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby AriKT » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:08 pm

Flex wrote:
AriKT wrote:You can easily do this and still take most of the single target threat/efficieny talents: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#LGZhbZIcGzRRRzbu.


And now you're sacrificing Gag Order and Safe Guard. So it all works out. You will always sacrifice something for more healing.


Seriously? Of course you're going to give up something. But its a matter of what that something is. Gag Order is relatively worthless in PvE except for the CD reduction on Heroic Throw for trash. Safeguard looks nice on paper, but its something most Warriors wouldn't even blink at giving up. None if this is on the level of Choosing between ShoR and WoG.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby AriKT » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:09 pm

Don't get me wrong here. I don't think the Warrior self healing is a problem. Its just that they get it basically for very little is my point.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Darielle » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:17 pm

Safeguard looks nice on paper, but its something most Warriors wouldn't even blink at giving up.


I hope you're joking. Intervene has no min range and they aren't being stretched for talent points as much now, so Safeguard is pretty much going to be in any serious raiding Warrior's spec, just like Raidwall will be in ours and already is.

5-mans, no. Any sort of semi-serious or hard raid content, yes.
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