Remove Advertisements

PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:40 pm

Sure it shouldn't be mandatory to use a 3 HoPow ShoR every time, but if we're on the forums, and we're assuming we're discussing the potential of the class at it's peak as our benchmark, then we are going to assume that we use things in their maximum potential state. Which then leads to the idea that it is mandatory.

Personally, after hearing about the pushback of the release, I have wrongly convinced myself that they did that just to give paladins another pass. I'm jumping on the screaming and gnashing of teeth bandwagon!

I want less dead GCDs! I want an interrupt! No new taxes!!!


Ok, well I'll still pay taxes.

One thing I would like to reiterate that I do still believe about the Paladin is that, once you get a mod to help you track HoPow near the middle of your screen, it changed my usage of it substantially. I do find the current system fun. Could it be better? Yes. I do find it fun though.


Is sanctuary working?
Image
User avatar
Warsadin
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:00 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:32 pm

theckhd wrote:Our "natural" state in this model would be sitting at 3 HoPo for the full 15% block. That's what our threat would be balanced around, so we wouldn't be denied our big opening moves (AS and a reworked version of ShoR, presumably) on the pull.


That doesn't make any sense. Why would we arbitrarily not be balanced around having Inquisition up all the time in this model? What if we take everything as it stands now but arbitrarily decide our threat is not balanced around using SHotR ever, but it's a bonus if we decide not to WoG ourselves?
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10470
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Arianne » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:50 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
theckhd wrote:Our "natural" state in this model would be sitting at 3 HoPo for the full 15% block. That's what our threat would be balanced around, so we wouldn't be denied our big opening moves (AS and a reworked version of ShoR, presumably) on the pull.


That doesn't make any sense. Why would we arbitrarily not be balanced around having Inquisition up all the time in this model?


Because Inquisition cancels Holy Shield. For ST we're balanced around having that 15% mitigation, not having Inquisition. For AoE we're balanced around having the Inquisition threat and not the 15% mitigation.

Sabindeus wrote:What if we take everything as it stands now but arbitrarily decide our threat is not balanced around using SHotR ever, but it's a bonus if we decide not to WoG ourselves?


Because they additionally have to balance Inquisition and ShoR, which means that ShoR has to hit for huge amounts. Then they have to use that to balance our average TPS. If we lose the huge amount that ShoR hits for, then they can balance our ST rotation based on one set of abilities and our AoE rotation based on another set of abilities that includes Inquisition modifier.
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Abnir » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:46 pm

Hi, folks. Long time lurker, occasional poster. I made a post about alternative AoE finishers to Inquisition a while back and I wanted to elaborate here based on the current discussion and the ideas being traded. Bear with me if the whole Blinding Shield issue is flogging a dead horse - it just seemed like a potentially very cool new ability and seems poised to be the perfect AoE finisher for us and a solution to the Inquisition problem.

Inqusition seems to be the biggest obstacle to them letting Prot have a random proc that would grant Holy Power. They don't want us worrying about stacking Inquisition and Shield of the Righteous. No problem. I say throw out Inquisition as a mechanic for tanks. It's great for Ret, possibly even for Holy, and there's no reason it can't remain as our level 81 skill (Shield of Righteousness at 75 wasn't exactly usable by Ret, after all).

But it could honestly be removed from being in a protection pally's bag of tricks, and we could (and personally I think should) be balanced around never having it. Savage Roar is a nice mechanic to focus on maintaining with my cat dps, but I'm sure glad I don't have to worry about it when tanking as a bear. Inquisition would be easy enough to restrict for Prot without taking it away from the game- make it once again exclusive with Holy Shield, for example, so that Holy Shield both cancels it and and also prevents us from putting it up while Holy Shield's active.

In its place, bring back Blinding Shield to replace Inquisition in Prot rotations. It doesn't have to replace Inquisition as the level 81 ability, Blinding Shield can be a Protection Talent (ideas of where in the tree follow).

The amount of damage it does, the number of targets it impacts, and the exact nature of its "Blinding" debuff (if any) are all variables that Blizzard can determine based on what's best for the game and balance, but Holy Power would alter one or more of these (damage, targets, intensity or duration of debuff).

Regardless, it wouldn't be nearly as good single target as Shield of the Righteous, and so the debuff shouldn't be something indispensable for single target tanking.

Some possibilities:

1. If an actual "Blind" or disorient is considered too OP, it could....oh, I don't know....be so bright it still gets in our attackers' eyes, lowering their AP by 10%? Works as our multitarget Vindication but still feels like using the Light as a weapon to weaken our attackers.

2. Could have Holy Power increase its damage if it's always an AoE (but still less than Shield of the Righteous so there's a clear distinction).

3. If it won't be an AoE in the purest sense, it could still be more useful than Shield of the Righteous for small groups, having Holy Power increase the number of targets it damages, applies the debuff to, or both.

4. Duration or even intensity of debuff could be a function of the Holy Power spent.

Again, these are only possibilities and of course up to Blizz as they tune things, but the main effect would be we get an attack that procs holy shield and consumes holy power that would be the AoE counterpart to Shield of the Righteous - less single target damage, more targets.

Perks:

+ It was originally forecast to be a new ability we'd be gaining, and nothing says "Exciting New Expansion" like getting a new attack in our bag of tricks. New cooldowns are nice, as are new mechanics, but let's face it, some new flashy attack would be sexy.

+ That it's a shield attack makes it the perfect thing to activate Holy Shield in AoE, thematically speaking.

+ Removing Inquisition as a variable for Protection Paladins keeps Blizzard from painting itself into a corner with the delicate balance between the perks of Inquisition and the damage of Shield of Righteousness. Far easier to balance an aoe or group attack against a single target attack.

+ Removing Inquisition would also keep Blizzard from painting itself into a corner with us for Holy Power generation. It would enable them to allow us to have a random proc element - say Judgments have a chance to proc a holy power, or (my personal preference as stated in an earlier post) Avenger's Shield grants one holy power. This makes Grand Crusader much more of a no-brainer when it procs, instead of us having to worry about whether we should hit Crusader Strike/HotR first because of their paramount role in Holy Power generation.

Potential Downsides and Solutions:

- Prot Tree is too crowded and we have enough new attacks and talents in it.

S: Make Shield of Righteousness a baseline ability and Blinding Shield goes in its place in our tree. Shield of Righteousness was baseline in Wrath - holy pallies found some small use for it in soloing, it could be a finisher for them again, for what it's worth. It would only proc Holy Shield with the prot talent for HS.

- Too far into development to add a new ability

S: Not much I can say here, other than I wonder how hard it would really be to implement, especially since they had an early version of it. A little more effort here so Blizzard doesn't paint itself into a corner with balancing Inquisition, HoPo generation, and Shield of the Righteous patch after patch could be worth their time now.

- Blind would be OP

S: Again, it doesn't have to literally do the blind or disorient effect. Thematically, the ability to use the Light as a weapon reflecting off our shields sounded pretty fun, and the debuff could honestly cover the issue of us needing a multitarget vindication.

TL;DR:

1. Blinding Shield could replace Shield of Righteousness as a Prot Talent in our tree and be our AoE finisher, and Shield of Righteousness goes back to a trainable ability but is still our single target finisher.

2. Inquisition remains the paladin level 81 ability but is exclusive with everything in a prot paladin's bag of tricks and we're not balanced around it, freeing us up to having a random proc to generate more Holy Power.

3. Avenger's Shield grants one Holy Power, making Grand Crusader a button we always want to press.
Prot specced since May 2006.
User avatar
Abnir
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:58 pm

tlitp wrote:I. Purely subjective. Reconsider the emphasized part - you're mixing up two fundamentally different tasks, and while doing so you conveniently ignore some tools... which can't be included in any standard "rotation".

To be fair, I did put a disclaimer at the front of that to state that some of this was purely opinion. To address the emphasized part, we can obviously taunt to pick up an add, but we still need to hit it with something to hold it. In general, I don't even taunt loose adds - I just hit them with the most convenient ability, which is usually enough to overcome healer aggro. That saves my taunts for emergencies.

On live, if I can close distance I always have this ability. Even if I can't, I usually have AS available unless it's a stream of adds. On my warrior, I can always charge/intercept and Devastate. The beta tankadin, on the other hand, will run into situations where all they can do is taunt for 2 GCDs.

tlitp wrote:II. CP/finisher duality is a limitation by design.

While that's true, there's a vast difference in how it plays. The best way I can describe it is this: Imagine if Sinister Strike cost 100 energy. The play style would feel very slow, because it would take a long time to get 5 combo points. If you need 5 combo points to make best use of your finisher, that model will feel very limiting, to the point of constriction.

But SS doesn't cost 100 energy - it has a reasonably low cost, because the goal is to build up points quickly so that you can use your finishers quickly. That's exactly the model Ret uses because it has several sources of Holy Power. When you're able to cast your finisher frequently, it feels much less restrictive.

tlitp wrote:IV. This is a major design flaw. The protection toolbox has several examples of hybrid abilities/mechanics (ShoR/HS, J/JotJ/JotW, (CS/HotR)/Vind, AS).

Most of those hybrid mechanics aren't that bad though, because they're not reactive; they're things we want to do as often as possible anyway - refreshing JotJ, HS, Vindication, JotW, and so forth. Silences and Interrupts are reactive though, and that's why AS is a poor choice for piggybacking.

tlitp wrote:I'd simply ignore the "not GCD-capped" status. Focus instead on having meaningful decisions :
  • less hybrid tools
  • less multipurpose abilities (ST/AoE, melee range/long range)
  • non-obvious scaling with HoPow (using a 3-HoPow finisher should be a decision - optimal or less optimal - not something that is deemed mandatory in any given circumstance)

Well, I think the GCD-capped issue bugs me more right now. I've lived with 969 for two years, so I'm used to our rotation not having meaningful choices. I'm not used to staring at my screen anxiously because I have nothing to cast.

tlitp wrote:PS. *necessarily, silly Paladin. :P

Oh hush, you try writing a post while constantly being interrupted by coworkers!
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7710
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:04 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
theckhd wrote:Our "natural" state in this model would be sitting at 3 HoPo for the full 15% block. That's what our threat would be balanced around, so we wouldn't be denied our big opening moves (AS and a reworked version of ShoR, presumably) on the pull.


That doesn't make any sense. Why would we arbitrarily not be balanced around having Inquisition up all the time in this model?

It's not arbitrary at all. That model has our Holy Shield effectiveness scale with current Holy Power. In other words, if I'm sitting on 3 HP, I have 15% extra block. If I only have 2 HP, I only have 10% extra block. We would be balanced around having 3 HP and not using Inquisition because our mitigation would be balanced that way as well. By popping Inquisition, we lose our 15% block and become the squishy tank (in return for some threat).

What if we take everything as it stands now but arbitrarily decide our threat is not balanced around using SHotR ever, but it's a bonus if we decide not to WoG ourselves?

Sure, we could do that, but our mitigation would have to be tuned around us casting WoG constantly. So again, by switching to ShoR, we'd lose some survivability and require more external healing. It would only be arbitrary if we were balanced around neither of those concepts - i.e. balanced so that our threat was equivalent without using ShoR and our mitigation/survivability was also not balanced around using WoG.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7710
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:13 pm

Right now, Blizzard has assumed we will use WoG when we need it. When they think we will need it that is.

Thus, our balance of threat is pretty crazy since most tanks are never using it. Not only that but we're squishier due to Sanctuary being screwed up.

I would love to see some parses or a confirmation that Sanc has been fixed in 13033.

If they haven't balanced us around using WoG on occasion and still maintaining threat, what are they assuming we are doing, keeping in mind they just buffed WoG for prot.
Image
User avatar
Warsadin
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:00 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:15 pm

I really hope that whatever mythical blizz developer that visits this forum reads theckd's entry
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11010
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Daraxis » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:43 pm

Is it a certainty that somebody from Blizzard reads these forums? If not, I'll happily transfer the more constructive posts, including Theck's from a few pages back. We're largely on the same page, with the idea of holy power as a three point 'rage bar', rather than a combo point/finisher system. The rotation is my biggest concern at the moment, followed closely by lack of interrupt, then lack of passive self-heal.

Warsadin wrote:Is sanctuary working?

Sanctuary (or another Prot talent) is broke on 13066 (beta). Increases damage taken by 10% instead of decreasing.
User avatar
Daraxis
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:20 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby frenzy20 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:07 pm

I copied my paladin to the PTR and "tanked" the dummy for a while just to see what the tanking rotation felt like with all of the changes. I didn't get in the beta. Before I actually played on the PTR or read any posts regarding the 4.0 Paladin, I thought holy power sounded like a cool mechanic that would help make our rotation less boring. I also thought actively using a heal when needed as prot would be a good change, somewhat like ret paladins using their Art of War procs on Flash of Light.

After playing on the PTR I have the same feeling that most of the people here seem to in that empty GCDs suck and WoG doesn't heal for nearly enough. The biggest thing that made it feel awkward was the rate of holy power generation. We have effectively have one ability that generates holy power and it has a cooldown. While it might add "depth", I don't think it feels good to be starved of resources.

Part of the discussion so far has been about how much of a pain it is to choose between a weak heal, a strong single target attack, or a damage buff with so little holy power to go around. One of GC's posts said that they didn't want to make us get more holy power because it would make Inquisition feel mandatory. This reminds me of when WotLK came out and ret paladins were crying because they didn't have the mana to use consecrate so they thought they would behind on dps. Blizzard's response was that they weren't intended to be able to use consecrate as part of their single target rotation and they wouldn't be balanced around it. Wrath came and everyone was using consecrate in order to be competitive on dps even though they weren't supposed to have enough mana. Some time later they removed SA from being a base paladin ability and gave ret more consistent mana regeneration.

While we are in a slightly different situation because we can't use our abilities that we want to because of cooldown restrictions, I think the simplest and still effective solution would be the same idea: increase our resource(holy power) generation drastically (i.e. make CS and HotR no longer share a cooldown) so that we aren't restricted to using one finisher every 12 seconds but instead can use two in the same timespan. The only reason this could be really problematic is because it would complicate the prot Paladin rotation by forcing us to monitor our Inquisition buff, but since our holy power income would be consistent throughout the fight we could just alternate Inquisition and ShoR, substituting WoG as needed. It would also give us more flexibility because we'd be ramping back up to 3 holy power more quickly, making having to use WoG to heal yourself not as big of an issue or allowing the use of multiple ShoR to pick up adds.

Yes, this would require rebalancing but the numbers are far from finished as it is anyway and it wouldn't require a redesign such as making everything optionally consume 1 holy power. Though I really do like that idea or the one posted previously about not having ShoR use holy power at all and linking HS to current holy power.
Nagu - Shattered Hand(US) - Main
Xiin - Shattered Hand(US) - Old Main
frenzy20
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:33 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:11 pm

Daraxis wrote:Is it a certainty that somebody from Blizzard reads these forums? If not, I'll happily transfer the more constructive posts, including Theck's from a few pages back. We're largely on the same page, with the idea of holy power as a three point 'rage bar', rather than a combo point/finisher system. The rotation is my biggest concern at the moment, followed closely by lack of interrupt, then lack of passive self-heal.

Warsadin wrote:Is sanctuary working?

Sanctuary (or another Prot talent) is broke on 13066 (beta). Increases damage taken by 10% instead of decreasing.


Yes there are a few ancient posts made by blizzard stating that they do keep an eye on certain forums that are class discussion related.

If the devs are ever looking for informed paladin discussion, they would be coming here, along with a few other places. Plus they are players too, they have more than likely posted here on numerous occasions with their own ideas and such without anyone realizing it.

Also, ewww, 20% more damage than we should be taking, gross.
Image
User avatar
Warsadin
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:00 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Daraxis » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:33 pm

Warsadin wrote:Also, ewww, 20% more damage than we should be taking, gross.

I'm wondering if it was doing the same before this build.

There's a pull in Heroic Deadmines involving two 'Something Oaf' (can't remember the name), which are un-CC-able, un-stunnable and un-snarable. With the 85 premade (ie, perfectly suitable gear) and 104k hit points, I was taking 45k hits from each. At 750k hp each, the two dps couldn't burst them down and the two healers didn't have a hope after my cooldowns finished. Still, we had about five goes at it before giving up. :)

The two Oaf pull is after the first boss, which is just awesome. So, so good.
User avatar
Daraxis
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:20 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Darielle » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:04 pm

I agree with you, but I'm expecting Darielle to come in and say 1) You should wipe if your group doesn't play perfectly, 2) you should totally be able to pick up pats with HotR, and oh, 3) PEBKAC.


Then you both misunderstood and weren't trying to comprehend the point.

If you pull an extra pat because a Hunter autoshoots it or you just plain didn't see it coming up to you, yes it's a PEBKAC issue on the part of someone in the group. Blizzard wants that kind of situation to matter to ALL tanks, and it will, because they'll have abilities/resources on cooldown. Right now when that happens as a Paladin or a Druid, you just drag them into the pile and AoE them and get the run done faster when someone screws up like that, which is silly. If you happen to end up wiping because someone screwed up on that magnitude, you wiped because they did something monumentally stupid like shoot another pack, so you just pick yourself up and do that pull again and don't repeat the mistake that wiped you.

You certainly aren't guaranteed to wipe if a mistake happens. You can still pull off a pickup - but you'll both need skill and a bit of luck and probably cooperation/teamwork to pull it off and recover from that mistake. It has consequences, and big ones. I don't think Blizzard counts that as a negative. What Blizzard would probably count as a negative is if the tools available aren't able to handle a normal tanking situation, like say the normal tanking requirements of HoR. Yes, pug roulette will group you with baddies who do this kind of thing, but Blizzard isn't making tanks gods to compensate for the depths of pug hell, and even the mechanics of the new 5-mans mean that you're going to need to work together as a group and not do stupid stunts like that to succeed anyway.
Darielle
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Steve » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:18 pm

Imagine trying to tank little adds on Sarth 3D (when it was actual progression) with these new mechanics. Yeah, picking up whelps would be easier. But imagine picking up flames with the rotational gaps (and Avenger's Shield in your rotation) the paladin tank has on Beta/PTR. That would not be easy.

I suppose that's my single biggest fear (outside of them fucking up the numbers -- since they always fuck up the numbers).
Steve
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:04 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:22 pm

theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
theckhd wrote:Our "natural" state in this model would be sitting at 3 HoPo for the full 15% block. That's what our threat would be balanced around, so we wouldn't be denied our big opening moves (AS and a reworked version of ShoR, presumably) on the pull.


That doesn't make any sense. Why would we arbitrarily not be balanced around having Inquisition up all the time in this model?

It's not arbitrary at all. That model has our Holy Shield effectiveness scale with current Holy Power. In other words, if I'm sitting on 3 HP, I have 15% extra block. If I only have 2 HP, I only have 10% extra block. We would be balanced around having 3 HP and not using Inquisition because our mitigation would be balanced that way as well. By popping Inquisition, we lose our 15% block and become the squishy tank (in return for some threat).
Or we could be balanced around keeping Inquisition up all the time and never having Holy Shield up, but by keeping HoPo in reserve we gain some extra mitigation at the cost of threat. It's all arbitrary.

What if we take everything as it stands now but arbitrarily decide our threat is not balanced around using SHotR ever, but it's a bonus if we decide not to WoG ourselves?

Sure, we could do that, but our mitigation would have to be tuned around us casting WoG constantly. So again, by switching to ShoR, we'd lose some survivability and require more external healing. It would only be arbitrary if we were balanced around neither of those concepts - i.e. balanced so that our threat was equivalent without using ShoR and our mitigation/survivability was also not balanced around using WoG.

Yep, that's what I'm saying. This is all essentially equivalent, what I don't get is why advocate one specific implementation of the model over the other.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10470
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest