PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Candiru » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:52 am

While the divine storm as baseline idea is quite good, I'd prefer to see Consecration turned into a finisher. If it was a HP-consuming finisher it wouldn't require a CD, since it wouldn't be usable all the time. Make consecration scale with duration with HP, so it ticks for 2/5/9s depending on how much HP you spend. DivineStorm is balanced on a 2H weapon for ret, so making it work for prot with a 1H weapon might be difficult.

Personally I'd rather simply scrap HP from being spent as prot. Just make holyshield add 5% block chance per HP stored, and ShoR a xs CD ability that ignores HP. Now we can sit on 3/3 HP and full mitigation, or use Inquisition for more threat (but less mitigation, add -X% block chance to the inquisition buff to balance as appropriate), or use WoG for healing. Crucially now we will be spending lots of the time sitting on 3/3 HP, so we can WoG when its actually useful rather than spamming it. Spamming WoG will result in lower mitigation from holy shield, which would balance the self-healing from a healer-mana POV while using it sensibly could save your life and save healer mana by allowing them to cast cheaper heals rather than emergency heals if you top yourself off quickly.
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Arianne » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:48 am

Consecration is not a finisher. It's a DoT. We're asking for a finisher because we don't have a strong AoE mechanic like shock wave ( or at least Holy Wrath and HotR don't feel like they're doing enough burst threat).
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Epimer » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:52 am

Klaudandus wrote:Theckd, I'd love you so much more if you were to post this on the official forums.

User avatar
Epimer
 
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:54 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Minarva » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:57 am

I would be willing to post this on the beta forums for you if you want.
Minarva
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:58 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Darielle » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:18 pm

HotR doesn't work because it doesn't do enough damage.


Wut?
Darielle
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:34 pm

HotR will be a nice short-cooldown AoE pickup move if it gets a little bit of a buff. Right now it's still tuned at levels designed to keep the damage below two-buffs-ago Crusader Strike.
Last edited by KysenMurrin on Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6833
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Malthrax » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:36 pm

Arianne wrote:Consecration is not a finisher. It's a DoT.

Rupture is a DoT, and is considered a finisher, since it consumes combo points. So there is precidence for a non-direct-damage finishing move.

But I don't think Consecration is the right ability for the job.
User avatar
Malthrax
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:23 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby AriKT » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:08 pm

I don't think Divine Storm is a good solution. It would basically be like Crusader Striking every target and would result in less AoE threat than Inquisition's potential. Other than HotR our AoE Abilities are on long cooldowns, so its possible to use 1 HoPo Inquisitions to get more AoE threat. In some cases you can push back HoPo generation for this. Opening with HotR - Inq - AS - HW for an example. This way we get more AoE use out of it and don't have to wait for 3x HoPo to get our AoE threat.

Increasing HoPo generation won't do much for us also, unless its a huge increase in HoPo generation. Even Inq + ShoR shouldn't be an issue here because in order to use Inq to get that 30% increased ShoR we are giving up a ShoR. Depending on the amount of Holy damage in that cycle it may still be optimal to use just ShoR in a single target situation. If they balance it right then in a single target situation ShoR > Inq. So unless Inq + 130% ShoR > 2x ShoR its optimal to use 2x ShoR. Will that extra 30% of a ShoR push Inq + ShoR over the top? Even so, would be be by that much? If they think its too much burst then does that really matter? We would need 6 HoPo to line up that burst. I think the skill required for such should justify the risk.

The bigger issue I see is that our abilities are all used in rotation regardless of AoE or Single target.

AS - Pull ability, Cleave ability, and Interrupt. All while being integral to our single target threat.
HW - AoE ability, and Stun. All while being an integral part of our single target threat. The stun mechanic is actually important to reduce damage on trash packs that hit hard and we can glyph it to get a lot of the mob types in Cata.
CS and HotR - shared cooldown makes them the same basically.
Cons - Can probably drop this out of single target without much effect. However, we should all be painfully aware that with adds coming in that they like to walk through it like its not there.

If we are doing our rotation and say a pat comes into the mix then we are praying we have one of the AoE abilities ready. As a Warrior, I always have Thunderclap sitting and waiting, and saving Shockwave isn't a huge TPS loss(subbing Shockwave for a Devastate is a TPS gain, but its minor at best), and there is always the AoE fixate. Heroic Throw is also not really part of the rotation so thats usually there, but it has a horrendously long CD on Live.

We have RD to make up for a bit, but I'm sure that will get targeted at some point. The extra taunt on short CD is very useful for fights with a lot of streaming adds.

Currently on Live, we have HoReck with damage for a stray add, and most often AS is on CD after the pull and we can use RD + AS to get that loose pat to come to us.

We can glyph AS and sub it in for max TPS, but we don't need to and AS is most often there for us when we need it. Its my trusty ranged wtf you idiot why'd you pull that pack ability. Having it become part of our rotation has me really worried.

Some might say you're a bad tank if you aren't planning ahead of time for that streaming add you know is coming. Or if your raid doesn't suck you won't get that extra pack of trash. But things happen, and the Cata rotation alarms me that I won't have the abilities I need available for those situations.
AriKT
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:24 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Arianne » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:18 pm

I agree with you, but I'm expecting Darielle to come in and say 1) You should wipe if your group doesn't play perfectly, 2) you should totally be able to pick up pats with HotR, and oh, 3) PEBKAC.
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:19 pm

Arianne wrote:I agree with you, but I'm expecting Darielle to come in and say 1) You should wipe if your group doesn't play perfectly, 2) you should totally be able to pick up pats with HotR, and oh, 3) PEBKAC.


No need for personal attacks IMO.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11110
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Arianne » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:23 pm

Not a personal attack. Those are all things he's said.
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:26 pm

Candiru wrote:Personally I'd rather simply scrap HP from being spent as prot. Just make holyshield add 5% block chance per HP stored, and ShoR a xs CD ability that ignores HP. Now we can sit on 3/3 HP and full mitigation, or use Inquisition for more threat (but less mitigation, add -X% block chance to the inquisition buff to balance as appropriate), or use WoG for healing. Crucially now we will be spending lots of the time sitting on 3/3 HP, so we can WoG when its actually useful rather than spamming it. Spamming WoG will result in lower mitigation from holy shield, which would balance the self-healing from a healer-mana POV while using it sensibly could save your life and save healer mana by allowing them to cast cheaper heals rather than emergency heals if you top yourself off quickly.


That's probably the best "change the way HP works as a resource for prot" idea (i.e. method 4) I've heard yet. I actually like that a lot - we keep up the mitigation by CSing, but still have the option to trade mitigation for threat (Inq) or immediate survivability (WoG).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7849
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:28 pm

theckhd wrote:
Candiru wrote:Personally I'd rather simply scrap HP from being spent as prot. Just make holyshield add 5% block chance per HP stored, and ShoR a xs CD ability that ignores HP. Now we can sit on 3/3 HP and full mitigation, or use Inquisition for more threat (but less mitigation, add -X% block chance to the inquisition buff to balance as appropriate), or use WoG for healing. Crucially now we will be spending lots of the time sitting on 3/3 HP, so we can WoG when its actually useful rather than spamming it. Spamming WoG will result in lower mitigation from holy shield, which would balance the self-healing from a healer-mana POV while using it sensibly could save your life and save healer mana by allowing them to cast cheaper heals rather than emergency heals if you top yourself off quickly.


That's probably the best "change the way HP works as a resource for prot" idea (i.e. method 4) I've heard yet. I actually like that a lot - we keep up the mitigation by CSing, but still have the option to trade mitigation for threat (Inq) or immediate survivability (WoG).


I don't see the distinction from the way it works now? I.e. use 3 HoPo for either threat or mitigation.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10472
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Arianne » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:29 pm

You should add it as option 5 in your other post and put it up on the official forums Theck.

I don't see the distinction from the way it works now? I.e. use 3 HoPo for either threat or mitigation.


The difference is that you don't use HoPo for ShoR and your mitigation is based on storing HoPo rather than using it.
Last edited by Arianne on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:30 pm

theckhd wrote:
Candiru wrote:Personally I'd rather simply scrap HP from being spent as prot. Just make holyshield add 5% block chance per HP stored, and ShoR a xs CD ability that ignores HP. Now we can sit on 3/3 HP and full mitigation, or use Inquisition for more threat (but less mitigation, add -X% block chance to the inquisition buff to balance as appropriate), or use WoG for healing. Crucially now we will be spending lots of the time sitting on 3/3 HP, so we can WoG when its actually useful rather than spamming it. Spamming WoG will result in lower mitigation from holy shield, which would balance the self-healing from a healer-mana POV while using it sensibly could save your life and save healer mana by allowing them to cast cheaper heals rather than emergency heals if you top yourself off quickly.


That's probably the best "change the way HP works as a resource for prot" idea (i.e. method 4) I've heard yet. I actually like that a lot - we keep up the mitigation by CSing, but still have the option to trade mitigation for threat (Inq) or immediate survivability (WoG).


It's beautiful!
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11110
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest