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PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Loras » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:46 pm

Warsadin, no offense here, I mean it in the most positive way (not being ironic here, I really don't mean it in a bad way, although it might be hard to believe with the way I'd express it, apologies), but the way you react to the situations looks like: "I also don't like ability A, i don't like mechanics B, but in the end, whatever pile of sh*t they serve me, I'll eat it and accept the new changes". Sorry, but we're still in Beta/PTR phase. I will accept the new changes once Cataclysm hits the stores. Until then, we're in a testing phase. Period. I will *fight* for making my class better till the last possible chance. If you don't want to, then it's up to you. It's like a political stage - the government won't do this/that, so I'll have to bear with it and move on. That's why people go on demonstrations or even revolts, that's why there are medias to try and work for your own way. that's why there are different organizations to counter some of the decisions, or at least try to. This is not comunism.

About the thoughts of people basing their facts on foruma activities. Sorry, but Side A (that supports the criticism and wants changes) claims that the situation is bad AND supports that with LOTS of forum posts. Side B (that supports the changes and doesn't think there's anything broken) claims that the situation is good BUT doesn't support it with anything. "I want it my way and you can see here 300 more that think like me" is kinda stronger than "I want it my way but I can't show you proof of 300 more that think like me".
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:54 pm

I've made quite a few posts describing exactly what I want changed in the beta and once we go live. I have voiced my concerns in a manner which is concise and easily readable.

I have supported those whom have made coherent claims to the situation which they have experienced in the beta.

What I have been opposed to is the fanaticism which many people take and the hyperbolic ways in which they've described their experiences and fear mongering.

I have been playing this game for a long time. I have quite a tough skin, though I respect your comments, and don't approve of your position of my perspective, it doesn't bother me in the least.

Again, as we've seen in the past, "sides" and their perceived strength is not a proper barometer of what is right and wrong in society, or in the game. We have established that. There is literally no counter argument. I don't refute the people clamoring on the forums are always stronger, I refute that they are always right.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:06 pm

Loras wrote:About the thoughts of people basing their facts on foruma activities. Sorry, but Side A (that supports the criticism and wants changes) claims that the situation is bad AND supports that with LOTS of forum posts. Side B (that supports the changes and doesn't think there's anything broken) claims that the situation is good BUT doesn't support it with anything. "I want it my way and you can see here 300 more that think like me" is kinda stronger than "I want it my way but I can't show you proof of 300 more that think like me".


Quick anecdote on this topic:

Way way back in BC, Retribution had a deep talent called Fanaticism. It was a vague DPS increase. Now at this time, due to threat mechanics of every other DPS class, Ret paladins found themselves pulling aggro consistently if they maximized their DPS output. This was actually a huge problem, as it prevented them from doing competitive DPS with other hybrids, let alone other DPS classes.

So in one of the patches (2.3? I forget) Blizzard saw that this was bad, and added a 30% threat reduction to Fanaticism on the PTR. The DPS Paladins of the world rejoiced. But several of us (and when I say several I really mean like me and 3 other dudes in a pool of hundreds of forum posters) noticed that the tooltip stated "Reduces all threat" with no exclusion or condition. This meant, as far as we could tell, that Ret paladins would pretty much never be able to tank in Retribution spec again, even for a low end dungeon or anything an Arms Warrior, for example, could do. Now recall during BC, hybrids were still supposed to be able to hybridize a bit. As a Prot Paladin i did occasionally slap on healing gear and I am sure others had similar experiences. Even though I was full time Prot at the time, this seemed like a horrible inconsistency in game design. Why should a talent, essentially, penalize a baseline class ability?

So I posted on the forums: "Hey guys, how about if this talent doesn't work when using RF in case a ret paladin wants to offtank." And the sheer amount of vitriol spewed in my direction (and the like 5 other guys who agreed with me and also posted this) was amazing to me. "DON'T COMPLAIN THEY'LL TAKE IT AWAY ZOMG" "Spec Prot if you want to tank you loser!" "Ret Paladins should be bad at tanking because they are not Prot, this is fine" etc. And it truly baffled me. My request was reasonable, I thought. Why should taking a talent reduce baseline effectiveness? Does any other talent do that (no)? Why were people so adamant? I was shocked that there was so much resistance to what seemed like a completely reasonable change.

However, as you are probably all aware, in a subsequent PTR build, Fanaticism read "Reduces all threat by 30% except under the effects of Righteous Fury." And that was that. Suddenly all the arguments about why Ret shouldn't be able to tank etc. went away, and everyone was fine again.

Moral of the story? Just because 99% of the population thinks something should be one way and yells real loud about it doesn't mean that it should as far as the game designers are concerned.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm

Also, this one is more legend than actual fact, but it underscores my point further:

http://vista-development.com/ws/nays.htm

Most of us have heard the story of President Abraham Lincoln and his cabinet as they pondered signing one of our country's most historic documents...

When he brought in the Emancipation Proclamation, President Abraham Lincoln polled his Cabinet. The Secretary of State stood and uttered his "Nay" unmistakably. The Secretary of the Interior followed suit. The Treasury Secretary and so forth: all against.
Lincoln heard them each in turn. Then Lincoln raised his hand and said...
"The Ayes have it."


Since I probably should have included a TL;DR on the previous post: Just because the majority thinks something is a bad idea doesn't make it so.


(note: I am fully aware that by posting this I have probably made a lot of people very cross with me with respect to godwin's law and I might revisionist history this post to the trash if it turns out I have done so)
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Lieris » Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:12 pm

I remember off tanking Zulaman as ret back then. Good times.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Loras » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:42 pm

Sabindeus wrote:So I posted on the forums: "Hey guys, how about if this talent doesn't work when using RF in case a ret paladin wants to offtank." And the sheer amount of vitriol spewed in my direction (and the like 5 other guys who agreed with me and also posted this) was amazing to me. "DON'T COMPLAIN THEY'LL TAKE IT AWAY ZOMG" "Spec Prot if you want to tank you loser!" "Ret Paladins should be bad at tanking because they are not Prot, this is fine" etc.

Sab, a slight difference - those kind of comments come from 12-year old kiddos. In our case the criticism comes from well-rounded, established, serious and level-headed paladin community members :D

Warsadin (sorry again for the crappy comparisons up there), the thing is, our position is not one of "sky is falling", "change this or we die/reroll/world ends/class goes to recycle bin". Just because we're arguing in a bit more "fiery" way doesn't mean it's a "live or die" case. Just we want the best for the class (although "best" is pretty subjective, I know). We'll definitely find some bright side of it (or at least I hope so), but as I said, once Cataclysm is a fact. I also respect the opinion of the opposite camp, regardless of some unpleasant arguments here or there. Just, things can be balanced more in our favor without that having a negative impact on your gameplay experience, and I think that's the golden middle everyone's trying to reach. Obviously, we can't expect a complete removal of the HoPo mechanic, etc, at this stage, thus the proposed changes are most of the time ones that CAN be done within the current range of tools that they provide us with/want us to be using. Or at least that's my view on the situation. To be honest, all I wanted during all of WotlK, in addition to our 969, was to add a proc or two to make it interactive. And I got my procs, for which I'm grateful. So yeah, I can see the good sides of it too :)

Anyway, Beta servers are down, so hopefully a new patch is coming :)
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:08 pm

I do hope they get that build up soon! Personally I'm going to go home and jump on the PTR again because I do actually find it fun over my live paladin.

Yup, I said it. I find it fun, at 80, doing randoms.

I hope the new beta has WoG fixed such that it scales. I want all of you to take some damn combatlog screenshots for us. I want to see that baby hitting 30k. Though hide those screenshots or we'll get nerfed.

I also hope the sanctuary fix is actually in on this build, and it's not 3%.

Again, believe me I'm not going to get offended if you think my ideas suck at all. It's our right as free thinking people to have opinions and it's the only thing that makes discussion worthwhile.

True Story(bit off topic but will show why I find the PTR fun):

The first time I copied over my tankadin, I immediately talented up, and queue'd for a heroic. It was PoS.

Yup, hadn't had time to train. I tanked with seal of insight, didn't have mastery, didn't have all sorts of crap. Let me tell you it wasn't that fun at all. Man did I think it sucked.

Then I realize..wow I gotta go train. I go and get all these things they gave us and man is it a world of difference! The next heroic I roll into Halls of reflection and just Decimated the place. We had great dps, I simply kept my salvation mouseover macro close by and always planned out my abilities. I couldn't tell you how great it was when that rotation worked correctly and I even said, "I thought paladin tanks were broken on the PTR without inquisition?" The UH dk said, "I'd guess not."

It was fantastic in my opinion since heroics are such snoozefests these days. That first run really put my barometer low, so I guess the run after that going so well, must have put me a bit high on the rose colored glasses scale.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:15 pm

Warsadin wrote:I do hope they get that build up soon! Personally I'm going to go home and jump on the PTR again because I do actually find it fun over my live paladin.

Yup, I said it. I find it fun, at 80, doing randoms.

I hope the new beta has WoG fixed such that it scales. I want all of you to take some damn combatlog screenshots for us. I want to see that baby hitting 30k. Though hide those screenshots or we'll get nerfed.

I also hope the sanctuary fix is actually in on this build, and it's not 3%.

Again, believe me I'm not going to get offended if you think my ideas suck at all. It's our right as free thinking people to have opinions and it's the only thing that makes discussion worthwhile.

True Story(bit off topic but will show why I find the PTR fun):

The first time I copied over my tankadin, I immediately talented up, and queue'd for a heroic. It was PoS.

Yup, hadn't had time to train. I tanked with seal of insight, didn't have mastery, didn't have all sorts of crap. Let me tell you it wasn't that fun at all. Man did I think it sucked.

Then I realize..wow I gotta go train. I go and get all these things they gave us and man is it a world of difference! The next heroic I roll into Halls of reflection and just Decimated the place. We had great dps, I simply kept my salvation mouseover macro close by and always planned out my abilities. I couldn't tell you how great it was when that rotation worked correctly and I even said, "I thought paladin tanks were broken on the PTR without inquisition?" The UH dk said, "I'd guess not."

It was fantastic in my opinion since heroics are such snoozefests these days. That first run really put my barometer low, so I guess the run after that going so well, must have put me a bit high on the rose colored glasses scale.


I wish I was as optimistic as you. Every time I play on the PTR, I am stuck with dps that can't assist or focus on a single target for the life of 'em. They seem to like to dps the mob that is farther away from me, which is of course the mob on which I have the least threat. I can make do on live when things like that happen but on the PTR, I just seem to be unable to because I just can't seem to generate enough threat after a taunt.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Flex » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:25 pm

The reason I'm optimistic?

I remember all the people who thought we wouldn't be able to tank anything and we'd totally be the worst tank in LK.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:31 pm

Flex wrote:The reason I'm optimistic?

I remember all the people who thought we wouldn't be able to tank anything and we'd totally be the worst tank in LK.

Actually, I remember us being right and during the numbers tweaking they gave us more mitigation. We also later got major improvements to what we perceived and illustrated as our biggest problems.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Flex » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:33 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Flex wrote:The reason I'm optimistic?

I remember all the people who thought we wouldn't be able to tank anything and we'd totally be the worst tank in LK.

Actually, I remember us being right and during the numbers tweaking they gave us more mitigation. We also later got major improvements to what we perceived and illustrated as our biggest problems.


Which was minor to the complaining I saw about the changes to how paladins and tanks work overall, the block change being one facet. It wasn't here for the most part but other places I haunted.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Dantriges » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:22 pm

Well I still remember the days in Ulduar when my one tier behind dk was a better tank than my main paladin and well the mainankadin forum at the time. the chorus was We are good for threat and nothing else. If you want to do hard modes bring a dk or a bear if no dk is available. So that´s two tiers of 4.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:52 am

My arguments against our current design are right in line with Khira's and Knaughty's. Some are objections based on weaknesses in what I consider a "standard tanking toolkit" (off-GCD interrupt mostly). Others are objections based on what I feel are weak mechanics (Holy Power and ramp-up time, empty GCDs). And in the end, some are based on whether or not I feel playing a paladin is "fun."

  1. I don't find empty GCDs fun, I find them frustrating. It means I have nothing to do but wait, and it also means I don't have something on hand to pick up or solidify threat on a stray mob.

  2. I don't find holy power that much fun. On a more fundamental level I just dislike it because it's implementation for Prot is clunky, and we were never a "combo point" class. But I think that for the most part, it's workable.

    I think part of the reason it feels like a fun mechanic for Ret is that it feels enabling - it gives you your big attack every 6-10 seconds or so, and sometimes sooner, but you don't stress too much about the timing because you're a DPS class. But its implementation as prot feels far more like a restriction than an enabler - it limits the use of your big-hitter and keeps it on a long cooldown. It's something that can be fixed pretty easily though in a variety of ways. See the end of this post for ideas.

  3. I don't like Inquisition as an AoE "finisher." I don't think it's good design to spend combo points doing something passive, which is part of the reason Holy Shield's old implementation was scrapped too. It's far more interesting to use them on something active. Slice & Dice suffers from the same problem, though it's mitigated by the duration being longer. I'd rather see Inquisition become a skill that only Ret uses, and have Divine Storm become baseline. That way we have an active AoE finisher that mimics our active single-target finisher.

  4. I actually love Grand Crusader. I just dislike how it interacts with the holy power system. I wish it were more like Sword & Board, with AS being our big-hitter and highest priority.

  5. I don't like that AS is a silence and interrupt. It should be either our big-hitter or our silence/interrupt, not both. Using an interrupt as part of our regular rotation just feels like clumsy design, because it doesn't make player choice relevant. We can't show off our skill by using it reactively, because it's a large component of our threat generation.


In the end, I'm a rotation whore. If the rotation is fun and elegant, I'll like it. I liked 969 because it was elegant and because I could master it and turn my attention to the "important" parts of tanking, like encounter mechanics and raid leading. It would be nice if the rotation had more depth - i.e. was easy to pick up and do competently, but deadlier in the hands of a master. 969 was lacking in that department, but adding talents like Grand Crusader and Sacred Duty could easily have fixed that problem all on their own.

So really, my biggest complaint about the class right now is the rotation. If they can make that elegant and fun, they'll have me in their pocket. If they can't, I have a tough decision to make between playing a paladin that I don't enjoy that much and a warrior that I do.

As to the "maybe you shouldn't be playing a paladin then" argument, I don't think that's very fair. It may be true given the new mechanics, but I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be upset when "their" class, whose current incarnation they're reasonably happy with (arguably for the first time in the almost 6 years WoW has been in existence), changes this significantly.


-------------------------------
So, I said I was a rotation whore, and I also promised I'd show how our rotation was easily fixed. Here's the goods:

Method 1: Filler - This idea has been repeated all over the place, so it's not original. But a simple, single-target filler addresses most of the rotation-based complaints people have. The single target rotation becomes ShoR>CS>(Jud>AS)>filler. The multi-target rotation becomes Inq>HotR>HW>Cons>AS>Jud>filler. Unfortunately, this really doesn't solve any of the Holy Power concerns.

Pros:
  • Eliminates empty GCDs - no more waiting
  • Always something on-hand to pick up a stray add
  • Helps differentiate single-target and multi-target rotation

Cons:
  • Doesn't address Holy Power concerns
  • Probably needs some sort of additional feature to make it more interesting (applies a debuff?)

Method 2: HoPo on Judgement through talents - Judgement's another staple of our rotation, and it's also on a fixed cooldown, so this doesn't give us a variable Holy Power generation rate. It does, however, speed up our rotation a bit:

CS-J-X-CS-ShoR-X-CS-J-X-CS-ShoR-X.

This actually solves a lot of problems.

Pros:
  • No empty GCDs, because AS/Cons/HW can fill all of the gaps.
  • Faster HP means more ShoRs (makes the rotation feel less slow), quicker ramp-up times
  • Guarantees 1 J before every CS for Sacred Duty procs
  • Because ShoR is cast more often, it doesn't have to be as large - this allows damage to be shifted to other abilities to make our rotation less lopsided, and also increases the likelihood that we'll want to push everything back for AS (because it may hit harder, relatively, than ShoR).
  • Gives the rotation a very rhythmic feel (1-2-3-1-4-3-1-2-3-1-4-3) while still preserving the variability with GC procs

Cons:
  • Inquisition interaction is now an issue. That can be solved by replacing Inq with an AoE finisher for prot or by turning ShoR into physical damage. Personally, I'd rather see Inq replaced with Divine Storm for us.

Method 3: Random HoPo Procs - Similar to method 3, but trigger it off of melee attacks or CS. Adds some variability to Prot's HP generation, reduces the time between ShoRs, and so forth.

Pros:
  • Most of the things listed in method 2

Cons:
  • Inquisition, see above
  • Variability is not necessary a good thing for a tanking rotation

Method 4: Redesign how Prot uses Holy Power - Right now, we all have the same Holy Power model: stack it to 3 to activate your big flashy button, which has no cooldown. While that's nice for the sake of symmetry, it's also completely unnecessary. Consider the following:

-ShoR becomes a 9 second cooldown ability that does X damage. It will also consume one unit of Holy Power (if available) to do an additional Y damage.
-AS now does Z damage, but has the same "consume one HP to do an additional chunk of damage" mechanic.
-WoG now heals for Q, but can consume one HP to heal for a little more.
-Divine Preparation - consumes a unit of Holy Power to reset the cooldown of ShoR/AS/WoG,

You see where I'm going with this - we build HP with CS, and bleed it with other abilities. However, we can also use it for other things (like resetting cooldowns, or buffing our damage mitigation cooldowns, etc). It turns into a combination Energy/Combo Points mechanic. This would take a lot of tuning, which we probably don't have time for at this point in beta, but if done right it could be a dynamic and interesting system.

Pros:
  • Lots of options, could make for a very interesting resource mechanic to manage without the slow pace and awkward cooldown limitations of our current system.

Cons:
  • Probably too late in the beta for such a massive overhaul
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:57 am

Theckd, I'd love you so much more if you were to post this on the official forums.

And if you do so, please link us to it.



Feedback that is well written like this is the kind of stuff that Blizz loves -- so i really hope you do post this on the forums
Last edited by Klaudandus on Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Arianne » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:08 am

Great post Theck. I definitely agree with all of your thoughts.

We need an AoE finisher - Holy Wrath doesn't work because of the 'meteor' implementation. HotR doesn't work because it doesn't do enough damage. Consecration is on too long of a cooldown. We need Blinding Shield or Divine Storm or something.

A holy power implementation that only used 1 holy power would be much more interesting for protection and would mean that a player changing from retribution to protection would have a great playstyle change.

A self-buff for a DPS is fine because one of the challenges is being able to maintain that self-buff while doing DPS. A self-buff for a tank is ridiculous because we're already trying to pay attention to the debuffs that we put on various mobs (which mob do I need to judgement, has vindication proc'd - even though we don't have much control over it, we do need to watch it). That's why GC is refusing to give us more holy power, because he agrees that it's too much to watch. However, that's not the proper solution. The proper solution is making us not have a buff. Make inquisition not cause holy shield. Make ShoR drop the inquisition buff. Make it more penalizing by having it increase the chance to be crit or something (though I guess in some ways if you really need inquisition you'll use it no matter what they put on it, but they can make it clearly disadvantageous to use inquisition while actually tanking (versus offtanking).
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