PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:53 am

Sabindeus wrote:Sure we can count that, but the fact that we can't count everyone makes trying to USE that to make decisions a bad idea. Furthermore, even if we DID know what every single player thought, that doesn't mean their thoughts could make a good game.


Actually, that would technically work -- If the group mentality is that the players leave the class/spec by such a percentage, and that it cannot be justified with the simple FotM phenomenon, then the devs would have to revise why people are abandoning the class/spec in the first place.

Any big swing in population does affect how a class is developed. Look at the DKs, everyone moved to the DKs thanks to fights like Sarth -- then they got nerfed and everyone left the class behind, even more than could be attributed to FotM -- and thus had to be revised again for 3.2. Rinse and repeat.

This is magnified because tanks are the spec that is played the least.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11229
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:56 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Thyre wrote:You don t like me do you ? I dit not say "we all hate i" i said most player hate it. At least most that are giving feedback. It s true that the Blizzardforum is often not a good place for good discussion. But i think we, at maintankadin, shouldn t be on such a high horse and ignoring anything form these places. At least many players here to also post in that forum.

No dude, I don't dislike you or like you. This is not about you or me. I am trying to point out the fallacy of trying to make arguments about what is "good" game mechanics based on an incomplete sample of opinions. You cannot justify calling something bad or good based on what the small population of the WoW forum OR this forum say about it. That's all.

Overall the feedback is bad. Maybe most players that like the changes do not post ... but this is something we can t count. What we can count is the feedback that is coming and this nearly one way negeativ.

Sure we can count that, but the fact that we can't count everyone makes trying to USE that to make decisions a bad idea. Furthermore, even if we DID know what every single player thought, that doesn't mean their thoughts could make a good game.


Then I challenge you to present a source of complete feedback to support your happy-day-sunshiney position that all is right in Tankyland. Just because you don't like what feedback is saying, you can't just discredit it. If such forum feedback is worthless, Blizzard has no reason to even bother supporting the existence of forums at all. Doing so is a waste of money and resources if the info is valueless.

The truth is that the complaints there are quite often specific, based on actual play experience, and the visible evidence of popular opinion is decidedly negative.
User avatar
Feanorion
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:51 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:17 am

Fineeee there Fean, I'm working on it, will link any and all constructive positive Paladin posts soon. While eating Flatbread Chicken Bacon Ranch at work.

Also, no one has any post on the beta forums FOR ANY CLASS that is constructive and complete feedback which is all positive.


It doesn't exist. Everything isn't fine for any class. At all. For anyone. Everyone has a problem with something, Paladins are no different.

Your feedback is not invalid, it's just biased and very narrowly scoped to the one class we play making it seem much worse than it actually is. If you played all the classes, you'd have gripes with every single one of them.
Image
User avatar
Warsadin
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:00 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:37 am

Warsadin wrote:Fineeee there Fean, I'm working on it, will link any and all constructive positive Paladin posts soon. While eating Flatbread Chicken Bacon Ranch at work.

Also, no one has any post on the beta forums FOR ANY CLASS that is constructive and complete feedback which is all positive.


It doesn't exist. Everything isn't fine for any class. At all. For anyone. Everyone has a problem with something, Paladins are no different.

Your feedback is not invalid, it's just biased and very narrowly scoped to the one class we play making it seem much worse than it actually is. If you played all the classes, you'd have gripes with every single one of them.


Once again, you are very wrong. I have mentioned several times on these forums that I love every Warlock change, and that if I keep playing (a huge if: I am trying out LotRO, and already tried and uninstalled Rappelz), I will make my warlock my main once again unless the paladin changes considerably from the mess that it is currently. So no: I do not just crap on anythign and everything Blizzard does. I call it as I see it. Warlocks are a lot more fun than on live, paladins are not fun, poorly equipped (ability-wise), and have near-broken mechanics.
User avatar
Feanorion
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:51 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:41 am

They are more fun to you, look at is as a designer, people are bitching about warlocks too.

Warlocks aren't in a terrible place, but that hasn't stopped people from complaining about them.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... &pageNo=58
Image
User avatar
Warsadin
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:00 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:42 am

Feanorion wrote:
Warsadin wrote:Fineeee there Fean, I'm working on it, will link any and all constructive positive Paladin posts soon. While eating Flatbread Chicken Bacon Ranch at work.

Also, no one has any post on the beta forums FOR ANY CLASS that is constructive and complete feedback which is all positive.


It doesn't exist. Everything isn't fine for any class. At all. For anyone. Everyone has a problem with something, Paladins are no different.

Your feedback is not invalid, it's just biased and very narrowly scoped to the one class we play making it seem much worse than it actually is. If you played all the classes, you'd have gripes with every single one of them.


Once again, you are very wrong. I have mentioned several times on these forums that I love every Warlock change, and that if I keep playing (a huge if: I am trying out LotRO, and already tried and uninstalled Rappelz), I will make my warlock my main once again unless the paladin changes considerably from the mess that it is currently. So no: I do not just crap on anythign and everything Blizzard does. I call it as I see it. Warlocks are a lot more fun than on live, paladins are not fun, poorly equipped (ability-wise), and have near-broken mechanics.


Does every forum poster love every Warlock change?
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10476
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Kihra » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:54 am

Warsadin wrote:If being questioned by a pug in a 5man is going to force you off your class then maybe a druid is a better choice for you.


There's no need to be obnoxious. That's obviously not what I said in my post.

Warsadin wrote:Druids right now are taking the least damage along with DKs on the beta.

GC has stated(here: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26726066766/4-0-protection-paladin-feedback/)

That right now the shield classes are taking more damage, they are going to have to adjust the numbers, thus, your experience is EXACTLY indicative of what GC thinks.

This is a good thing because it will lead to some balancing to all the tanks. Once they get Sanctuary working(lol @ us tanking with 10% less damage mitigation), we should be in a good state.


Sanctuary appeared to be working just fine in my tests last night on beta. The paladin actually took less damage per unblocked hit than the druid did (which was to be expected with the significant amount of extra armor the paladin has over the druid).

I think the bigger issue is that druids are now the "block tanks" in that Savage Defense can fully absorb hits. SD also scales with Vengeance, so as you keep pulling, it just gets better and better. Then on top of that there's the LotP heal for about 8.8k that just happens every few seconds.

Anyway I am not particularly concerned about survivability. I'm sure they'll get that fixed to some reasonable degree. I just brought it up as part of the "less fun to play" experience I am having right now on beta.

Warsadin wrote:
I don't know if you've played a prot warrior before. Though I have experience on a warrior since september of 2004(open beta). Now sure, you can basically mash warrior keys and be successful in many places. Though in TBC heroics, which is a similar model to what we're heading into in cata, you could not. You had to actually have very complicated and efficient rotations and awareness.


Yes, I've played all four tank classes extensively, including warrior.

Warsadin wrote:Many times you would be going through your dance on the 4 mobs you're tanking and wouldn't know a sheep broke, and then one-shot your healer. You learned, you watched, you changed, and things got better. You just have to keep trying.

Now I know we have a complicated and convoluted rotation at the moment, and it will more than likely remain like that. Though with our choices, isn't that depth? You don't like the plan right now, we know that, but just because you don't like the design, doesn't mean it is wrong.


The problem I have with our rotation is that it's complicated without providing any depth. It's just fussy without providing any interesting choices. The druid rotation has more depth than the paladin one does, especially with the recent changes to make Lacerate crits refresh Mangle.

I should re-iterate that I could "get by" with paladin just fine. I held aggro just fine on trash packs and on the bosses just fine. I didn't die except to stuff I was obviously supposed to avoid.

It's not that paladin is too hard to play. It's that I don't find it fun to play in its current state. I realize that "fun" is subjective and that maybe others do find this playstyle enjoyable. I'm just not one of those people. :)

(1) I don't like having to do a a 1-HoPo throwaway ability just to get Holy Shield up.
(2) I don't like the choice of Inquisition vs. SotR. It just doesn't feel satisfying to use my HoPo just for an AOE damage buff, and it creates all sorts of balance problems where they have to keep SotR ahead of Inquisition for single target. I'd much rather have a choice between two damaging attacks (e.g., Blinding Shield for AOE and SotR for single target).
(3) I don't like Word of Glory. While I think it might work out ok for raid boss fights when you have a nice threat lead and the fight lasts a long time, it's not going to be much use in 5-mans. It's especially lackluster when compared with Leader of the Pack.
(4) I don't like the dead GCDs. It just doesn't feel fun. I'm not sure I even have a logical objection to dead GCDS. I just like to hit a button every 1.5 seconds. I find myself watching my bars for my ability to light up and/or just pounding Avenger's Shield hoping it will proc. :)
(5) I don't like that our proc is for our main spellcaster control ability: Avenger's Shield. When fighting caster packs, I have to save it for the right time if I need to reposition. That just feels clunky. A proper interrupt would solve this problem

There are plenty of changes I do like as well, and I am hopeful they'll make a few adjustments. I think some of the ideas floated by the community are pretty good ones, e.g., make Divine Plea give some Holy Power, make Blinding Shield the AOE Holy Power dump, etc.
Kihra
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Lieris » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:58 am

Well said Kihra.
Lieris
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2181
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:49 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:03 pm

I have no problems with those issues you listed at all.

I find every one of them valid and completely worth merited concern.

1) 1-HoPo to get HS up is a bad ability. I don't like it at all and it shouldn't be there, though with the current mechanic it's one of those things we have to do to be at max survivability for the Alpha damage.

2)I like the choice in theory, though I do agree that an AOE attack would be better than a buff.
I think they've done a good job scaling SotR ahead of Inquisition and by result, SotR hits like a massive truck.

3) Word of Glory compared to the other 3 tanking classes is more difficult to use, less overall efficient, and a lot more situational. If we are stuck with it, I will use it. Hence I am in favor of the ability if it's not going away, which it seems like, is not. I'd rather have it than not have it at all.

4) I honestly don't notice dead gcds. After tanking on a warrior without HS macro'd to everything for a lot of my tanking career, I press a button every 1/3rd of a second anyway, whether it's up or not. I know what I'm pressing and I'm going to press it no matter if it's up now or in 3 seconds, that button is getting pushed next.

Though I can certainly see dead GCDs aren't "fun." I don't think blizzard is going to refute that in any way. I think they know it's not "fun." I think they're more concerned with whether or not we can perform the rotation to sufficient playability and overall have a fun feel to the entire rotation. Which right now is definitely up for interpretation.

5) Avengers shield as our main interrupt is worse than the other tanks. Yes. I don't have a problem with it. Can I do it? Yup. I'm sure you can too. Should we bitch about it? Sure. If they're gonna give us an interrupt, I sincerely think it would of already happened unfortunately.
Image
User avatar
Warsadin
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:00 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Thyre » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:05 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Does every forum poster love every Warlock change?



I guess you are the appel guy.
Image
Image
Thyre
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:37 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby rothomp3 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:34 pm

Feanorion wrote:My belief and prediction is that Cataclysm will succeed at doing something that Aion, Warhammer Online, LotRO, Conan online, and other MMO's have failed miserably at: killing WoW.



The same exact words were spoken before Burning Crusade, and again before Wrath of the Lich King. Some people just hate change. You are one of those people.
rothomp3
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:55 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Warsadin » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:36 pm

rothomp3 wrote:
Feanorion wrote:My belief and prediction is that Cataclysm will succeed at doing something that Aion, Warhammer Online, LotRO, Conan online, and other MMO's have failed miserably at: killing WoW.



The same exact words were spoken before Burning Crusade, and again before Wrath of the Lich King. Some people just hate change. You are one of those people.


I'm sure he doesn't just hate change. I'm sure he's just particularly in opposition to the things we lack at the moment. Which he has expressed. He wants to be someone who brings a full toolbox to the table, as we all do. Though as we're focused on ourselves, we don't quite see the things as a whole which others don't bring and we do.

I don't think we can attribute someone's attitude just because they dislike change which I don't think is the case here.
Image
User avatar
Warsadin
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:00 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:37 pm

rothomp3 wrote:
Feanorion wrote:My belief and prediction is that Cataclysm will succeed at doing something that Aion, Warhammer Online, LotRO, Conan online, and other MMO's have failed miserably at: killing WoW.



The same exact words were spoken before Burning Crusade, and again before Wrath of the Lich King. Some people just hate change. You are one of those people.


yeah dude thats not exactly helpful. Please refrain from the ad hominems.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10476
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:05 pm

Kihra wrote:It's not that paladin is too hard to play. It's that I don't find it fun to play in its current state. I realize that "fun" is subjective and that maybe others do find this playstyle enjoyable. I'm just not one of those people. :)

(1) I don't like having to do a a 1-HoPo throwaway ability just to get Holy Shield up.

Agree, It's a base defensive ability and should not be so tied down to Holy Power

Kihra wrote:(2) I don't like the choice of Inquisition vs. SotR. It just doesn't feel satisfying to use my HoPo just for an AOE damage buff, and it creates all sorts of balance problems where they have to keep SotR ahead of Inquisition for single target. I'd much rather have a choice between two damaging attacks (e.g., Blinding Shield for AOE and SotR for single target).

Here I'm a bit iffy... On one side I do like the choice of 'burst single threat' vs. 'increased aoe threat by other spells'... Although either implementation I'd take (though as I stated above, I'd like to *not* waste holy power just to get Holy Shield up)

Kihra wrote:(3) I don't like Word of Glory. While I think it might work out ok for raid boss fights when you have a nice threat lead and the fight lasts a long time, it's not going to be much use in 5-mans. It's especially lackluster when compared with Leader of the Pack.

I don't like WoG because it feels like a situational spell that you may use once every 15 seconds if the stars align properly in the sky (have a nice threat lead, are taking massive damage, and know the healer is hurting for mana, and you are not full health, while you have 3 holy power, boss is not about to do something nasty you need to save WoG for -- which you really cant for very long, since you'd be wasting Holy Power at that point))

Kihra wrote:(4) I don't like the dead GCDs. It just doesn't feel fun. I'm not sure I even have a logical objection to dead GCDS. I just like to hit a button every 1.5 seconds. I find myself watching my bars for my ability to light up and/or just pounding Avenger's Shield hoping it will proc. :)

I don't necessarily mind breaks of 1.5-2.5 seconds, I break my 969 all the time to do side things like cleanse, taunt, salvation, re-evaluate environment and situations... most of it comes naturally, but sometimes you want a GCD to do something not threat related (assuming threat is not an issue)...
If we had a filler threat/dps move, it would have to be factored into our total rounding of the class (such as for threat) which means any time you don't select the filler threat move you are reducing your threat... In a 'perfect' world where 2 tanks are very close in threat at max potential in similar 'tier' gear, I'd prefer to be the one of those tanks that *can* do a utility spell without losing threat...
So that's my concern if we had a filler... that said I'll take this one either way it comes, as long as it's not a 4+ second dead zone



just my 2 cents
Sur-Pseudo
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Ocin » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:02 pm

rothomp3 wrote:
Feanorion wrote:My belief and prediction is that Cataclysm will succeed at doing something that Aion, Warhammer Online, LotRO, Conan online, and other MMO's have failed miserably at: killing WoW.



The same exact words were spoken before Burning Crusade, and again before Wrath of the Lich King. Some people just hate change. You are one of those people.


I dislike change for the sake of change. That's not great design. I disagree with Cata killing WoW though it may push more hardcore players to different games or time sinks...I'm looking at you chronic masturbation ;)
Ocin
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:55 am
Location: NJ/NYC

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest