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Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

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Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby sherck » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:01 am

Wow, I just watched a few videos of Holy Paladins doing level 85 instances and all I can say is, wow.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I know they are probably doing it undergeared because level 84/85 quest rewards are not yet in the game but I do think that the level 85 starter crafted gear is in the game and is accessable. I have no idea if the healers in the video were undergeared or not but since they made it through the instances, I suspect that he had at least some proper gear.

What I saw on the video:

1. On every pull, he was below 1/2 mana and was often below 1/4 mana by the end of the pull. Party was using CC on every trash pull.

2. He was constant casting heal spells. There was no slack time in his casting; it was spamming heals just like it is now in Wrath.

3. I was not counting but it appeared to me looking at either the cast bar or the animation going on that he probably cast Holy Light 3-4 times for every other spell he cast. Holy Shock was not used much and his Holy Power icon stayed on 3 charges quite a bit until expended. I did not see him use FoL, DL or LoD once.

4. He used GoAK once and it was pretty kick a$$ animation. I liked it.

Anyone healing as a Holy Pally in Beta? Anyone else have some first hand feedback on healing level 85 instances. From what I saw, I cannot say that I was happy to see what I was seeing. If Blizzard's intent was to change up our healing buttons used so that we use multiple spells, I was not seeing it.

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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby ginga-uk » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:40 am

Sounds a little odd to me. Especially the bit about 3-4 holy lights for everything else.

Holy light is meant to be the standard cheap heal, but it's pretty slow to cast. Holy Shock might be relatively expensive, but it heals for more than HL, and it gives 1 HoPo.

Having 3 HP a lot and not using the free heal would seem to be a waste of holy power and mana. Again the free heal heals for more than holy light.

Of course my pally healer in Beta isn't 85 yet, so my experience could be twisting a lot of this, I also havn't played it since the last update, so not taking into account the reduction in holy shock base heal, but as far as I have seen so far both holy shock and World of Glory heal for more than Holy Light. I'd need to relog to be sure, but this doesn't quite seem right.
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby sherck » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:34 am

I agree that his spell usage seemed out of whack. Blizzard is trying hard to make Holy Shock good enough that it should be used as soon as it gets off CD and that in turn should end up leading to use of WoG as often as possible.

He had Holy Power sitting at 3x stacks a lot durning his run.

But the part that I was dismayed at was that he was having to drink after EVERY SINGLE trash pull. Use of Holy Shock more would (theory) make his mana issues more of a problem instead of less of a problem by using a more expensive heal more often (yes, I know it then generates 1/3 of a mana-free heal <or boosts LoD by 30%>).

Perhaps he had zero Spirit on his gear and thus was not properly equipped to do mana regen....but at least one time he was standing talking after a pull instead of sitting and drinking and his mana did regen about 1/2 of what he was down in the 20-30 seconds he was talking which to me means he had at least some Spirit on his gear.

I don't know; we will see. I don't want to be OP face-roll healers in Cata like we are in Wrath. I want healing to be fun and need meaningful decisions in order to do it well.

But sitting and drink aftery every pull WHILE spamming heal buttons is not what they are going for.

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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:02 am

Perhaps he was just bad?
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby Thornir » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:21 am

I am not in beta, but I did heal a H:FoS on my paladin on the PTR. Here are my thoughts:

1. Without Infusion of Light, Holy Light is really, really, really slow. Holy Shock may not heal for much, but after casting a few non-hasted HLs, you'll practically be begging for a 6 sec CD instant cast heal. HPCT is much more important than Heals per cast.

2. Tanks are having threat issues all over. Everyone is getting hit, but then again, it was WotLK instances, avoidance and armor were nerfed, and no CC. Someone also told me that they buffed the mobs in the instances. Expect to use Dawn.

3. Beacon is your friend, if only for Tower of Radiance. HS, HL/FoL, HS and you can cast a WoG. If Infusion of Light Procs, you can heal a tank from dead to about half in 4 GCDs in the mostly crappy gear that I have.

4. If you do use Flash of Light or Divine Light because you are worried about "mana", you will have problems, especially if you do not overgear what you're doing. You have a full toolset because you will USE a full toolset. (Then again, paladin regen is broke atm).

5. Anticipate. Proactive healing can save you a buttload of time to think. Cast a HL on your already full tank so that you get your Mastery's worth.

6. Remember, triage. Do not top off the rogue when the tank is dying.
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby Flex » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:55 am

It is near impossible to judge without having a full rundown of both the healer's gear and the tank's gear. According to the blues doing level 85 dungeons in WotLK epics should be the last thing you do.
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby Candiru » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:47 am

With the new model of HolyLight = essentially free. There is no reason not to be always casting. If in doubt, cast a HolyLight on the tank. It can't hurt, and it could help.

It sounds like the old TBC healing model of spam heal FoL(rank max-1) at all times, otherwise cast HL rank4 if you need more healing, HL rank 6 if you REALLY need healing. Else spam FoL. Only now we spam HL, use FoL for more healing, and Divine Light for even more healing.

Keeping a beacon up to get free WoG every 3 HL seems like a good plan though.

Does make me wonder if going for haste/spellpower/mastery and ignoring regen for HL throughput spam will work out better than going for regen and casting HL/FoL/DL. HL just seems *so* much more mana efficient than the others, that there won't be much point in casting them. And won't HL have a higher spell coefficient than FoL due to its longer cast time? I can't see FoL being that useful in end-game healing.
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby PsiVen » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:55 am

Holy Shock / WoG are popular bread and butter healing, but Holy Light is always good and cheap; as GC himself said, all healers now have a similar heal to HL that acts as their 'autoattack' that they should be able to sustain indefinitely. Divine Light heals the most and costs the most under heavy damage circumstances. Flash of Light is now, as its tooltip indicates, best used in emergencies. Light of Dawn is kinda hard to use, especially since according to the holy paladins I've played with, you never want to burn Holy Power on it instead of WoG.

Personally I don't like how slow the main heals for everyone feel; druids especially feel like playing in slow motion with 2.4s Nourish. Constant drinking after pulls is simply how everything is in Cataclysm at high levels, and it just means we should have faster HP/mana regen out of combat.
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby Candiru » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:16 am

I think its a shame they swapped the roles of FoL and HolyLight. I liked the flavour of paladins having an efficient, fast small heal while other healers had efficient slow, large heals.

Now all the healers are the essentially the same, other than AoE buttons.
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby sherck » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:29 am

Candiru wrote:I think its a shame they swapped the roles of FoL and HolyLight. I liked the flavour of paladins having an efficient, fast small heal while other healers had efficient slow, large heals.

Now all the healers are the essentially the same, other than AoE buttons.


I cannot disagree with this.

Sure, some of the classes have a Direct Heal plus HoT (Regrowth, Riptide) as one of their single target heal spells but in essence they all have a small, medium, big single target heal and then "flavor" heals whether they be HoTs (Rejuv, Renew, Lifebloom), AoE (LoD, DR, WG, CoH, PW:B), or specials (instance HS, PoM, SM).

I understand what Blizzard is trying to do in "standardizing" their healer corps. It makes balancing an encounter much easier than previously. Same with tank standardization. However, I fear that it is going to take some of the fun out of the game if none of the healers have a nitch and all pretty much play the same.

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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby Eltiana » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:21 am

sherck wrote:I cannot disagree with this.

Sure, some of the classes have a Direct Heal plus HoT (Regrowth, Riptide) as one of their single target heal spells but in essence they all have a small, medium, big single target heal and then "flavor" heals whether they be HoTs (Rejuv, Renew, Lifebloom), AoE (LoD, DR, WG, CoH, PW:B), or specials (instance HS, PoM, SM).

I understand what Blizzard is trying to do in "standardizing" their healer corps. It makes balancing an encounter much easier than previously. Same with tank standardization. However, I fear that it is going to take some of the fun out of the game if none of the healers have a nitch and all pretty much play the same.

Cheers,
That's faulty reasoning. Sure it's fun having your own little niche roll, to differentiate yourself from the others, but it isn't so fun when you aren't taken to a raid because they already have said niche roll. What you are essentially saying is the equivalent of saying Pally tanking has become less fun, because we have lost the niche roll of AoE trash tank.
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby sherck » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:21 am

Eltiana wrote:
sherck wrote:I cannot disagree with this.

Sure, some of the classes have a Direct Heal plus HoT (Regrowth, Riptide) as one of their single target heal spells but in essence they all have a small, medium, big single target heal and then "flavor" heals whether they be HoTs (Rejuv, Renew, Lifebloom), AoE (LoD, DR, WG, CoH, PW:B), or specials (instance HS, PoM, SM).

I understand what Blizzard is trying to do in "standardizing" their healer corps. It makes balancing an encounter much easier than previously. Same with tank standardization. However, I fear that it is going to take some of the fun out of the game if none of the healers have a nitch and all pretty much play the same.

Cheers,
That's faulty reasoning. Sure it's fun having your own little niche roll, to differentiate yourself from the others, but it isn't so fun when you aren't taken to a raid because they already have said niche roll. What you are essentially saying is the equivalent of saying Pally tanking has become less fun, because we have lost the niche roll of AoE trash tank.


Not faulty at all....just different.

Personally, I think this game might have been more fun when we did have some specialized roles to play. Sure, if you were an early Pally tank and were only seen as the "add" tank instead of the boss tank and you WANTED to be the boss tank, then life sucked. But if Blizzard had come back and said "our intention is that Warriors and Druids are boss tanks and DKs and Paladins are add tanks" then everyone would have adjusted.

Same with healers. And CC DPS classes. And kiting DPS classes.

However, now, Blizzard is trying to make all classes that share a role interchangable and I am not sure that it is more fun that way.

Was I sat in Wrath because I was a Holy Paladin and the raid needed a raid healer? You bet I was. Did it suck? Not for me...I went out and then leveled a Priest and Druid so that I had all my bases covered. Need a tank healer? Bring the Pally. Need is raid healer? Bring the Druid. Need a switch off healer? Bring the Priest. No skin off my nose which one I played.

So, to me, I think that Cata might be just a bit less fun when none of the healers have a nitch to fill and radically different abilities at different jobs. Many think it is a good thing, I think it will be slightly less fun but that was what I was expressing here. My opinion.

Anyway, I hope it all works out and that healing is still a fun part of raiding in Cata and not a chore.

Cheers,
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:31 am

sherck wrote:Not faulty at all....just different.

Personally, I think this game might have been more fun when we did have some specialized roles to play. Sure, if you were an early Pally tank and were only seen as the "add" tank instead of the boss tank and you WANTED to be the boss tank, then life sucked.


It sure did.

But if Blizzard had come back and said "our intention is that Warriors and Druids are boss tanks and DKs and Paladins are add tanks" then everyone would have adjusted.


No, they DID say that, and we bitched and whined and complained until they decided that having tank niches was a bad idea. And it was a bad idea, the same way having only one class capable of tanking raids was a bad idea.

IMO if you played a Paladin and tried to tank in Vanilla, then and only then do you have any right to comment about "niches" and whether they are bad or good for the game.

Was I sat in Wrath because I was a Holy Paladin and the raid needed a raid healer? You bet I was. Did it suck? Not for me...I went out and then leveled a Priest and Druid so that I had all my bases covered. Need a tank healer? Bring the Pally. Need is raid healer? Bring the Druid. Need a switch off healer? Bring the Priest. No skin off my nose which one I played.


So then the only difference for you is that you don't need to level/gear as many alts! Sounds to me like you should be satisfied...
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby Candiru » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:39 am

I wasn't saying we should be much better tank healers than other healers, but it would be nice if we had FoL as our "free" heal again, and HolyLight as our "expensive" heal rather than the other way around.

We could have the same HPS on FoL as we do now on HL, it would just be a nicer flavour, being a bit different to priests/shammies/druids.
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Re: Holy Paladin healing at level 85....

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:48 am

Candiru wrote:I wasn't saying we should be much better tank healers than other healers, but it would be nice if we had FoL as our "free" heal again, and HolyLight as our "expensive" heal rather than the other way around.

We could have the same HPS on FoL as we do now on HL, it would just be a nicer flavour, being a bit different to priests/shammies/druids.


So essentially you just want a name swap?
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