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Vengeance : scaling issues

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Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby tlitp » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:52 am

Rendered null and void by a better understanding of the underlying pattern. Check this post for a breakdown of Vengeance's mechanics.

Important : do not clutter the ATC thread. Discussion/comments/whining/wishfulthinking/whatever should be posted here. Thank you.
Last edited by tlitp on Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Chunes » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:46 am

It's finally happened then? Someone got around to cloning Theck?

I kid, I kid. Thanks for posting this, I'll digest the numbers when I have time to do so.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:48 am

How exactly is this a scaling issue?
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby dmok » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:55 am

Flex wrote:How exactly is this a scaling issue?

If I understand it correctly, as our avoidance increases our ability to keep up Vengeance is greatly reduced which in turn greatly effects our tps on fights
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Candiru » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:00 am

It means that low avoidance / high HP gear will be the way forward for high threat. Or some way to self-damage. If only we still had SoB! Standing in a fire while tanking might be making a comeback! Haven't done that since TBC.

Too high avoidance will quite drastically lower your threat on a slow hitting boss. From those graphs, you can see you can easily lose 20-30% of the boost.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:03 am

dmok wrote:
Flex wrote:How exactly is this a scaling issue?

If I understand it correctly, as our avoidance increases our ability to keep up Vengeance is greatly reduced which in turn greatly effects our tps on fights


But wont the damage increase from harder content and an increase in health pool come into play, sort of like the current rage model of feast and famine?
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby dmok » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:08 am

Flex wrote:But wont the damage increase from harder content and an increase in health pool come into play?

The uptime on the Vengeance buff we gain is only dependent on how frequently we get hit. How much we get hit for, or how well we can handle it do not factor into our ability to maintain threat over ever increasing tps from the faster scaling dps .... which is where vengeance is supposed to help us out.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:19 am

dmok wrote:
Flex wrote:But wont the damage increase from harder content and an increase in health pool come into play?

The uptime on the Vengeance buff we gain is only dependent on how frequently we get hit. How much we get hit for, or how well we can handle it do not factor into our ability to maintain threat over ever increasing tps from the faster scaling dps .... which is where vengeance is supposed to help us out.


The strength of the vengeance buff is tied to how hard we are hit and how large our health is though.

So provided it functions properly in the initial raid tier the health gain and damage increase from gaining a new raid tier should wash out the DPS gains where the only factor would be avoidance gains, but, according to a post I saw on the official forums, a warrior was rocking about 16% combined parry and dodge in most of the 333 blue tanking gear.

Then if things move into farm status you just swap in the DPS offset gear with more threat stats.
Last edited by Flex on Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Minarva » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:26 am

It caps out pretty fast, so as content gets harder it still caps pretty fast anyway.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Chicken » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:35 am

The thing is however that (apparently) Vengeance decays slowly, as opposed to just going from however high it was to nothing once the buff runs out. That means that it does scale negatively with avoidance, as more avoidance means there's on average a longer delay between the times you take damage, which in turn will lower the average attack power contribution of Vengeance as unlike thought before, Vengeance's attack power doesn't stay at it's cap so long as you get hit at least once every 20 seconds. That's in addition of course to the already known (obvious) factor of more avoidance meaning it takes longer for Vengeance to reach its cap in the first place.

Though as I said above "(apparently)", I'd personally like to see more testing done on the subject. It should be fairly easy to see the described effect in action, I'm mostly questioning it's authenticity as I'd never heard someone mention this before and the poster that posted it is newly registered and has but a single post.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Mutley » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:55 am

Weren't bosses supposed to get more exp and hit in higher tiers? Just like they are getting more avoidance.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Kierly » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:55 am

Chicken wrote:I'm mostly questioning it's authenticity as I'd never heard someone mention this before and the poster that posted it is newly registered and has but a single post.


That is why I posted what I saw because no one had mentioned the decay. I know I read earlier that the devs were thinking about having it decay at some rate.

I created an AddOn to record the changes in my characters AP and tested on mobs in deepholm where the only AP changing ability was vengeance. Below is data from the end of the last boss fight in stonecore where you can see the vengeance decaying over 20 secs in 10 ticks.

The AP listed is only the AP from vengeance. The DmgIn, Resist, Absorb, Blocked columns are the amount of dmg that came in from the last change in AP value. My health for this fight was around 78k.

Code: Select all
Time,   AP,  DmgIn, Resist, Absorb, Blocked
33:51, 4822,     0,      0,      0,     0
33:53, 5431, 14687,      0,   2761,   451
33:55, 5159,     0,      0,      0,     0
33:57, 4902,     0,      0,      0,     0
33:59, 5741, 19723,      0,    958,     0
34:01, 6398, 17160,      0,      0,     0
34:03, 6250,  1349,   1216,   1488,     0
34:05, 6707, 13982,      0,      0,     0
34:07, 6853,  8760,      0,   1135,  4241
34:09, 6168,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:11, 6823, 17520,      0,   1164,     0
34:13, 7447, 17548,      0,      0,     0
34:15, 6702,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:17, 6367,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:19, 5622,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:21, 6186, 15375,      0,   1283,   631
34:23, 6015,  1730,      0,   1514,   562
34:25, 6951, 22499,      0,      0,     0
34:27, 6796,  3498,      0,      0,     0
34:29, 7401, 17173,      0,      0,     0
34:31, 6656,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:33, 5911,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:35, 5167,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:37, 4422,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:39, 3676,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:41, 2932,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:43, 2187,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:45, 1442,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:47,  697,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:49,    0,     0,      0,      0,     0
Last edited by Kierly on Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:08 pm

Kierly wrote:
Chicken wrote:I'm mostly questioning it's authenticity as I'd never heard someone mention this before and the poster that posted it is newly registered and has but a single post.


That is why I posted what I saw because no one had mentioned the decay. I know I read earlier that the devs were thinking about having it decay at some rate.

I created an AddOn to record the changes in my characters AP and tested on mobs in deepholm where the only AP changing ability was vengeance. Below is data from the end of the last boss fight in stonecore where you can see the vengeance decaying over 20 secs in 10 ticks.

The DmgIn, Resist, Absorb, Blocked columns are the amount of dmg that came in from the last change in AP value. My health for this fight was around 78k.

Code: Select all
Time,   AP,  DmgIn, Resist, Absorb, Blocked
33:51, 4822,     0,      0,      0,     0
33:53, 5431, 14687,      0,   2761,   451
33:55, 5159,     0,      0,      0,     0
33:57, 4902,     0,      0,      0,     0
33:59, 5741, 19723,      0,    958,     0
34:01, 6398, 17160,      0,      0,     0
34:03, 6250,  1349,   1216,   1488,     0
34:05, 6707, 13982,      0,      0,     0
34:07, 6853,  8760,      0,   1135,  4241
34:09, 6168,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:11, 6823, 17520,      0,   1164,     0
34:13, 7447, 17548,      0,      0,     0
34:15, 6702,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:17, 6367,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:19, 5622,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:21, 6186, 15375,      0,   1283,   631
34:23, 6015,  1730,      0,   1514,   562
34:25, 6951, 22499,      0,      0,     0
34:27, 6796,  3498,      0,      0,     0
34:29, 7401, 17173,      0,      0,     0
34:31, 6656,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:33, 5911,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:35, 5167,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:37, 4422,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:39, 3676,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:41, 2932,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:43, 2187,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:45, 1442,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:47,  697,     0,      0,      0,     0
34:49,    0,     0,      0,      0,     0


I'm confused, what exactly do the columns represent? I notice AP goes to 0 at the end so it can't be your total AP.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Kierly » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:21 pm

The AP is the AP value from the vengeance buff alone as it changes.
The other columns are the amount of total damage that came in between changes in the AP value of vengeance. Resist is the portion that got resisted, absorb is the amount that got absorbed, and the block column is the portion that got blocked.
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Re: Vengeance : scaling issues

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:21 pm

So you started the fight with 4822 Vengeance?
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