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4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:37 pm

cant warriors put 3 points into shield mastery and lower their shield block to 30sec cd?
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Yelena » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:04 pm

steadypal wrote:cant warriors put 3 points into shield mastery and lower their shield block to 30sec cd?

That question was raised like two months ago during a previous comparison between Shield Block and Divine Protection. End result was that having half the CD was in favor of SB on incoming damage that was pure melee, about a wash when you factored some magic-based damage into the mix, and still in favor of DP on fights with large amounts of magic damage.

Overall, they're pretty comparable on average, even with Shield Block on a (talented) 30 second cooldown. Paladins also have the advantage of taking it a step further by glyphing into Divine Protection for extreme magic fights, an option not offered for Shield Block.
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:34 pm

30 sec shield slam is insane threat though :P
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Yelena » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:48 pm

That's providing they specced into Heavy Repercussions, which is an optional talent (but most will pick it up anyway, outside of trick builds). Three point Shield of the Righteous (non-crit) hits as hard as a buffed Shield Slam (if not harder) in equal gear.

In the end, threat will likely be about the same between the classes, over a reliable average length of time to iron out RNG fluctuations. Most of the Paladin threat-related concerns center around the first 15 or so seconds (many of these concerns are directly related to the overall concerns regarding the rotation).
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby towelliee » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:06 pm

Yelena wrote:That's providing they specced into Heavy Repercussions, which is an optional talent (but most will pick it up anyway, outside of trick builds). Three point Shield of the Righteous (non-crit) hits as hard as a buffed Shield Slam (if not harder) in equal gear.

In the end, threat will likely be about the same between the classes, over a reliable average length of time to iron out RNG fluctuations. Most of the Paladin threat-related concerns center around the first 15 or so seconds (many of these concerns are directly related to the overall concerns regarding the rotation).


Exactly. 3HP + Sotr + Sacred Duty = 30-50k Sotr...In my videos on bosses you see it hits for 45k+ thats every 12 seconds.
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Arianne » Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:18 am

If warriors hit for 20-25k every 6 seconds with SS then that's better than a 50k ShoR when the sun and moon align every 14s.
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:56 am

Arianne wrote:If warriors hit for 20-25k every 6 seconds with SS then that's better than a 50k ShoR when the sun and moon align every 14s.


Well if it makes you feel any better, Crusader Strike hits about 2x as hard as Devastate.
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Yelena » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:01 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Arianne wrote:If warriors hit for 20-25k every 6 seconds with SS then that's better than a 50k ShoR when the sun and moon align every 14s.


Well if it makes you feel any better, Crusader Strike hits about 2x as hard as Devastate.

Which would be expected that most of our (comparable) abilities hit harder, given that everything has a longer (in some cases, effective) cooldown. In the end it'll balance out, that doesn't necessarily make the Paladin model of everything having longish cooldowns "fun", but that's subjective and not relevant to the point in this case.

While on the topic, one of my concerns given the longer cooldown model our abilities have becomes our dependence upon hit/expertise compared to the other tanks. In the case of a Warrior; if an ability is avoided or misses, it will be available to hit again shortly, comparable Paladin abilities (with SotR being an outlier) have a longer cooldown, which can lead to issues over shorter blocks of time within a fight. It probably won't matter much with how threat is seemingly being balanced on the Beta servers, in all likelihood, it comes down to principle for the most part (for the first couple tiers at least).
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Flex » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:08 pm

Yelena wrote:While on the topic, one of my concerns given the longer cooldown model our abilities have becomes our dependence upon hit/expertise compared to the other tanks.


Many of our abilities can't miss or be Dodged or Parried though.

SoT ticks can't miss be dodged or parried.
SoT weapon damage always connects if the proccing attack connects.
Judgement can only miss
AS can only miss
For HoPo generation CS and HotR always generate.
What is the holy damage portion of HotR on?
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Yelena » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:49 pm

Flex wrote:
Yelena wrote:While on the topic, one of my concerns given the longer cooldown model our abilities have becomes our dependence upon hit/expertise compared to the other tanks.


Many of our abilities can't miss or be Dodged or Parried though.

SoT ticks can't miss be dodged or parried.
SoT weapon damage always connects if the proccing attack connects.
Judgement can only miss
AS can only miss
For HoPo generation CS and HotR always generate.
What is the holy damage portion of HotR on?

Censure applications can be parried, even if the melee swing hits. Nothing has really changed insofar as multiple avoidance checks whenever we swing our weapon, while using Seal of Truth. Given that currently only auto-attacking will stack Censure, one could argue that we have fewer chances for our attacks to be avoided. Considering also that Seal of Truth and Censure ticks are an abysmal representation of how much damage we do currently, one could almost consider them to be an outlier in our threat package.

HoPo generation is an aside and not related.

The overarching point was; when damage is delivered in larger pieces over longer intervals, as opposed to smaller pieces over shorter intervals (which happens to be the underlying difference between filling every GCD and not), the failure for abilities to connect over a short time frame will be more evident in threat output.
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Arianne » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:33 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Well if it makes you feel any better, Crusader Strike hits about 2x as hard as Devastate.


My CS in my 277 gear hits for around 1500. My premade warrior's Devastate in 245 gear hits for 1k. The warrior in my raid with 277 gear hits for 2500 with his devastate (granted, with raid buffs). I don't see how the scaling is different there, plus each further hit of devastate on a mob gets bigger because of the armor reduction (or, in the 277 warrior's case it goes from 2500 to 2800 to 3100 with crits hitting for 7k).
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Yelena » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:35 am

I'll assume, for the sake of simplicity, that both you and the Warrior in comparison are using the same weapon (as weapon speed, and subsequent damage range make a difference on percentage-based attacks).

With talents (and before mitigation), Crusader Strike should be in the realm of 228% weapon damage, give or take. Devastate should be 150% + a fixed amount (which scales with level) per stack of Sunder Armor.

With the 277 Last Word, my Crusader Strikes are in the 1700-1800 range, with just Blessing of Might. Toss on the 277 Bloodvenom Blade (+20 Str & Berserking), and CS jumps up to 2200 or so.

Part of the difference you're seeing is likely that, given both are physical attacks, the fact Devastate applies Sunder Armor will mean the each subsequent attack will be mitigated less (until fully stacked). Consider also, if the Warrior you're referring to is on Live, the Armored to the Teeth talent (which is going away). Generally speaking in equal gear and zero buffs on the Live servers, Warriors have more Attack Power than Paladins, so their weapon swings with identical weapons tend to hit harder naturally.
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby TonabShin » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:42 am

Draconic Embossment - Stamina
Might be a good idea to add this for those leather workers.
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby mavfin » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:21 am

Just a warrior note: My 80, on PTR, with no extra mastery over the 8.00 you get from 51 points in prot, has 30% base block chance. Not sure what Crit Block chance is.

What's a pally's base block chance at 80 with no extra mastery? As I understand it, your block chance will go up faster, while mine will go up slower, with crit block chance going up, too. I'm reasonably sure they can make that balance out.
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Re: 4.0 Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Darielle » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:47 am

mavfin wrote:Just a warrior note: My 80, on PTR, with no extra mastery over the 8.00 you get from 51 points in prot, has 30% base block chance. Not sure what Crit Block chance is.

What's a pally's base block chance at 80 with no extra mastery? As I understand it, your block chance will go up faster, while mine will go up slower, with crit block chance going up, too. I'm reasonably sure they can make that balance out.


As a Warrior, you get 15% block from the talent passive (Sentinel), 10% from the 8 Mastery (Critical Block), and 5% base.

As a Paladin, you get 16% block from the 8 Mastery (Divine Bulwark), 15% from Holy Shield and 5% base. So it'd be 21% if standing in Dalaran and 36% in actual combat.

Of course, from that point on each 1 mastery will give a Warrior 1.25% block and a Paladin 2% block.
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