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Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:04 am

ulushnar wrote:Well how do Rogues in live feel about Feral Tanks rolling on "their" leather? If it's an issue, I haven't come across it and I wouldn't tolerate it.

We're all going to have to learn to share now.


I was being snide since some of us are only looking at it from our side, worrying about having DPS roll on gear, while worrying about tanks rolling on gear is equally valid of a concern.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Loras » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:07 am

No, no, I'm not saying we're right, they're wrong. Just that there will be drama :)
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:11 am

Loras wrote:No, no, I'm not saying we're right, they're wrong. Just that there will be drama :)


the initial post had an Us vs Them feeling.

A similar thing will happen for healers and cloth as well I'd imagine.
Last edited by Flex on Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby ulushnar » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:17 am

Loras wrote:No, no, I'm not saying we're right, they're wrong. Just that there will be drama :)


If there's drama, it's your guild's fault for tolerating it. New expansion means new rules and we don't know if there will be dodge/parry equivalents of every plate piece out there.

I'm just really excited about the wildcard aspect of Mastery in particular. I think it's an excellent answer to the question of gear sharing.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:57 am

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I seriously hate how we're gonna be fighting for hit, expertise and mastery with the plate dps classes.


All of the pieces you listed are Avoidance stat/Hit or Expertise or Mastery making them inferior DPS pieces and a quick eyeball test shows them to be tanking pieces.


You know that they already roll on our gear in spite of the defense stat showing on it. As long as it has more str and stamina than whatever they currently have, they will roll on it -- and you know you see these people a lot in randoms.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:01 am

ulushnar wrote:
Loras wrote:No, no, I'm not saying we're right, they're wrong. Just that there will be drama :)


If there's drama, it's your guild's fault for tolerating it. New expansion means new rules and we don't know if there will be dodge/parry equivalents of every plate piece out there.

I'm just really excited about the wildcard aspect of Mastery in particular. I think it's an excellent answer to the question of gear sharing.


If your guild is decent, and you're one of the guild's maintanks, I'd expect close to zilch in the drama department. After all, the one thing guilds one is to have their tanks and healers geared up as possible in order to start talking more content.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Thornir » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:06 am

Klaudandus wrote:
You know that they already roll on our gear in spite of the defense stat showing on it. As long as it has more str and stamina than whatever they currently have, they will roll on it -- and you know you see these people a lot in randoms.


Stupid people are stupid. You wouldn't want to run with them now, you still won't want to run with them in Cata. Tank gear is still tank gear, and they're still stupid for rolling on it.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:22 am

Thornir wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
You know that they already roll on our gear in spite of the defense stat showing on it. As long as it has more str and stamina than whatever they currently have, they will roll on it -- and you know you see these people a lot in randoms.


Stupid people are stupid. You wouldn't want to run with them now, you still won't want to run with them in Cata. Tank gear is still tank gear, and they're still stupid for rolling on it.


You really can't choose whom you run with if you hit a random by yourself, and they will still roll Need on it if they can wear it~ And the only thing you can do if they end up winning the need roll is to put 'em on ignore so you don't get grouped with 'em anymore.

Heck, last time on FoS, a DK DPS tank rolled need on the tanking boots one of our new tanks desperately needed, if it hadn't been for a ret pally from our guild as well that rolled need, our tank would have lost the roll on the boots. Why? Because it was shiny purple with better primary stats than the boots the DK had, regardless if they had defense and avoidance stats.
Last edited by Klaudandus on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:24 am

/facepalm at the people complaining about having to roll against other people in a dungeon! OH THE HORROR.

It's just a random dungeon. And it's just a random drop. Something you can run every single day if you desire that piece of loot so much. And if the dps rolls on it... well that's no real change from today now is it?
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:26 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Thornir wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
You know that they already roll on our gear in spite of the defense stat showing on it. As long as it has more str and stamina than whatever they currently have, they will roll on it -- and you know you see these people a lot in randoms.


Stupid people are stupid. You wouldn't want to run with them now, you still won't want to run with them in Cata. Tank gear is still tank gear, and they're still stupid for rolling on it.


You really can't choose whom you run with if you hit a random by yourself, and they will still roll Need on it if they can wear it~ And the only thing you can do if they end up winning the need roll is to put 'em on ignore so you don't get grouped with 'em anymore.

And? How is this any different from today?

If you want to guarantee yourself that you get loot, the only way to do it is to put a guild run together. It is your own problem if you ran it with randoms and they rolled against your gear.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:29 am

Nikachelle wrote:/facepalm at the people complaining about having to roll against other people in a dungeon! OH THE HORROR.

It's just a random dungeon. And it's just a random drop. Something you can run every single day if you desire that piece of loot so much. And if the dps rolls on it... well that's no real change from today now is it?


I'm just saying that there's stupid people out there that will roll on anything, and yeah, you can run the same place day after day if you lose the roll -- of course, there's no guarantee that the item you want will drop again the day after, right?

Of course, 16 straight days of not seeing an item in a heroic dungeon are not the same as 16 straight weeks of not seeing Heroic Neverending Winter, which is a boat the two of us are sharing currently. But it gets frustrating.

Nikachelle wrote:And? How is this any different from today?

If you want to guarantee yourself that you get loot, the only way to do it is to put a guild run together. It is your own problem if you ran it with randoms and they rolled against your gear.


I did mention in prior posts that this kind of thing means and most of us will go for guild runs only for heroics for the first couple of months to avoid precisely this.
Last edited by Klaudandus on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Loras » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:29 am

ulushnar wrote:
Loras wrote:No, no, I'm not saying we're right, they're wrong. Just that there will be drama :)


If there's drama, it's your guild's fault for tolerating it. New expansion means new rules and we don't know if there will be dodge/parry equivalents of every plate piece out there.

I'm just really excited about the wildcard aspect of Mastery in particular. I think it's an excellent answer to the question of gear sharing.

Grr... You're sometimes making it unneccessarily hard, people :D
Where did I say that it's a problem I'll face in my guild?
Where do problems happen to occur mostly? In pugs :)
Neither am I saying that dpsers are rolling on MY gear (I'm just saying both specs will need on it, so it has potential for causing problems), nor am I saying that it's ME who will suffer, in MY guild. I'm talking in general.

As for the healers comment - true, but it's present even at the moment. Every single clothie, be it healer or dpser, drools over the offhand from Blood Council HC :)
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Loras » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:36 am

Nikachelle wrote:/facepalm at the people complaining about having to roll against other people in a dungeon! OH THE HORROR.

It's just a random dungeon. And it's just a random drop. Something you can run every single day if you desire that piece of loot so much. And if the dps rolls on it... well that's no real change from today now is it?


Sorry, Nika, but this comment and the one you posted after that are a bit egoistical (no offense).
First, you can have alts, as lots of people here have tankadin alts (or any tanking class, really), instead of mains. You might not have a guild AND you might not be able to run heroic 25 man instances on farm to gear up and not care about that dungeon drop. Even if so, it's not always 100% possible to go with guildies to a certain place. Various reasons, won't go in details.

Second, about the "it's a dungeon/random drop" part. Needle-Encrusted Scorpion would like to have a word with you. A warrior in my guild didn't manage to get it for some... 46 days. And no, after 46 days he didn't win it, he just (almost) reached ArPen hard cap so gave up :/

The fact that it's no different than what it is today is not something admirable, is it? If anything, it adds one more reason/way/source of unpleasant pug experiences. As nowadays it's mostly a trinket issue and the occasional gear piece every now and then (and half of the time it's not that the person doesn't realize that it's not for his main spec, but more about the fact that he can't be bothered to wait for it to drop as the drop chance is low enough and the possible other solutions for an upgrade in that slot are close to 0)
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:43 am

Let's not get into fights, each of us already said our piece.

Let's just recap the important points.
* With the new stats system, tank gear will most likely have a combination of avoidance and threat(dps) stats (Dodge/Hit, Parry/Expertise, et al).
* DPS already roll on tank gear if the primary stats are better than on the item they currently have (Str/Stam) even if the items have defense, so the trend will continue in cataclysm.
* Concordantly, Mastery being a wildcard stat, can make purely DPS gear valuable to tanks for items such as Hit/Mastery or Expertise/Mastery.
* A way to minimize this is to run with guild members.
* Having to maintain a 2nd alt tank doubles the chances of this happening, since you really can't have guild members in your pockets to avoid this issue the whole time.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:49 am

@ Loras - Your argument seems a bit disjointed, I'm not really understanding what your point is... Someone who doesn't get a drop after 46 times is probably in the what... 0.000000001% that this happens to? (Also, just to confirm, I double checked it myself... pretty harsh that the guy has killed Devourer of Souls that many times and has never gotten the trinket.)

Also, to point something else out. If a plate item drops that has strength, stamina, and expertise. What exactly do you think is going to happen to it? If the stats are higher than your own, as a tank, chances are you're going to roll on it. And chances are so will the plate dpser. Then what?
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