Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Archeth » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:57 pm

So are you saying that gear of similar level/item budget between WotLK and Cata shows a serious item point advantage for the latter, or are you just reiterating what everyone's already saying? I'm not comparing level 277 gear to level 359 items, and those quest rewards and dungeon drops don't look like they're overbudget compared to our current gear either.

The point is there doesn't seem to be any special itemization which puts Cataclysm gear ahead. At some point you'll get more item points out of a Cataclysm green or blue, but until that point a Cataclysm item will not magically yield higher rating % compared to WotLK gear. It's just that item levels jump way faster than ever before.
Last edited by Archeth on Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Arincia » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:59 pm

Well this would take a lot of effort but you could try to have the mobs in heroics, and a goody bag drop, scale with a groups bad score. Below a certain point its all normal but once you get above that point the mobs health and damage scale slightly as well. Catch is as motivation to do it that way you can have a goody bag with a drop of gear equal the range your ilvl for completing it. (sorta like the weekly ICC quests). Final range of items is based on your item level from bag but mobs toughness are based on the groups average ilvl. Just need a smart system to do some checks. Have it checks the groups ilvl at start to determines toughness range and individual ilvl range for bag drop range. It allows people the choice of tougher instance with better rewards or easier run with normal rewards.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:39 pm

Hmm... those 2H weapons are strange. The ilvl 289 green is already the same raw DPS as a 271 epic from LK. That seems a little closer than it should be. I guess they must've modified the budget formula above 277, but nothing I've seen in Hyjal is any better than my 251s or 264s, and it's in the 280+ ilvl range. Dunno what to say.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Warsadin » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:33 pm

Normal trend of thinking Ras is that you'll get away with ICC gear pretty well into Deepholm, with that being basically the stopping point of your ICC gear even if you're rocking good 264 epics. So you shouldn't really worry about getting rid of all your epics in the first two quest zones, Hyjal and Vashj'ir that is. If you have 277 stuff going into level 85 5mans then you will more than likely still be able to complete those dungeons.

You will not be getting away with 277 stuff in the first tier raids though as they will be woefully inadequate by that time if the current trending of the gear stays at this lvl. ilvl359(the believed starting raid ilvl, or at the very least starter epics level) blues will be comprable to the LK weapons in raw stats and greater in damage. The Epic crafted weapon once itemized with the correct ratings will more than likely be a very large jump from heroic-LK weapons.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby knaughty » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:18 pm

Nikachelle wrote:Are we seriously arguing about an achievement from two years ago that had nothing to do with actually completing the dungeon? Gotta Go was never a requirement to finish Azjol'Nerub so this whole argument is stupid.

^^ this.

Perhaps there were 5-man achievements that were difficult in WotLK, I wouldn't know because I never cared, and did all bar two of them by accident (and those two were completed in one run of Occulus with a single drake colour). I never said "there are no hard achieves" - I said there are no hard 5-mans in WotLK.

I did all the TBC heroics in a mix of blue gear and maybe some early Karazhan pieces, though I'd tanked whatever heroics were required to key for Kara prior, obviously. I recall nothing in Wrath that's remotely close to that difficulty, though obviously the memory is somewhat faded after 3+ years.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Candiru » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:03 am

Also the 5man achievements which were hard at the start of WOTLK were the sort you would fail, but kill the boss anyway if you weren't careful. This meant you could only try once a day really anyway, so its not like the hours of wiping spent in the Mechannar being pounded y charged fists as you had no reflect or interrupt!
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby lythac » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:Hmm... those 2H weapons are strange. The ilvl 289 green is already the same raw DPS as a 271 epic from LK. That seems a little closer than it should be. I guess they must've modified the budget formula above 277, but nothing I've seen in Hyjal is any better than my 251s or 264s, and it's in the 280+ ilvl range. Dunno what to say.


They won't have changed the ilvl formula for items above 277, it will be a brand spanking new formula. There is a separate ilvl formula for Vanilla, TBC and WoTLK items - Cata will have on of its own. And they need it.


Whitetooth posted a while back some of the new ratings -

Code: Select all
Level      60   70      80      81      82      83       84       85
melee hit  10   15.769  32.79   46.696  66.499   94.701  134.862  192.056
spell hit   8   12.615  26.232  37.357  53.199   75.76   107.89   153.645
crit       14   22.077  45.906  65.374  93.099  132.581  188.807  268.878
haste      10   15.769  32.79   46.696  66.499   94.701  134.862  192.056


With the jump from 70>80 high end gear with 2-3 sockets was able to remain viable as both the ratings required per % and stats on gems doubled. Now its a 6 times increase and gems are currently only having their stats doubled, even gear with 2-3 sockets shouldn't last to raiding.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Modal » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:03 am

Hmm, out of curiosity, I looked up a couple of weapons with a 18-iLevel difference from WotLK transition:

Apolyon, the Soul-Render
Invasion Blade

It did indeed take more than 18 iLevels for weapon dps on greens to catch up to Sunwell epics.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:27 am

lythac wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:Hmm... those 2H weapons are strange. The ilvl 289 green is already the same raw DPS as a 271 epic from LK. That seems a little closer than it should be. I guess they must've modified the budget formula above 277, but nothing I've seen in Hyjal is any better than my 251s or 264s, and it's in the 280+ ilvl range. Dunno what to say.


They won't have changed the ilvl formula for items above 277, it will be a brand spanking new formula. There is a separate ilvl formula for Vanilla, TBC and WoTLK items - Cata will have on of its own. And they need it.


Huh what? The ilvl formula hasn't changed... ever... The only "changes" I can think of are the BC Stamina = 0.66 instead of 1, and ratings and that didn't change the formula, just the stats.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby tlitp » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:47 am

Sabindeus wrote:The ilvl formula hasn't changed... ever...

Never ever. :P
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby lythac » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:52 am

Sabindeus wrote:
lythac wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:Hmm... those 2H weapons are strange. The ilvl 289 green is already the same raw DPS as a 271 epic from LK. That seems a little closer than it should be. I guess they must've modified the budget formula above 277, but nothing I've seen in Hyjal is any better than my 251s or 264s, and it's in the 280+ ilvl range. Dunno what to say.


They won't have changed the ilvl formula for items above 277, it will be a brand spanking new formula. There is a separate ilvl formula for Vanilla, TBC and WoTLK items - Cata will have on of its own. And they need it.


Huh what? The ilvl formula hasn't changed... ever... The only "changes" I can think of are the BC Stamina = 0.66 instead of 1, and ratings and that didn't change the formula, just the stats.


http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t6928-looking_good_summary_known_info_itemization/#post155026
Hyzenthlei, 15/06/06 wrote:ItemValue = [(StatValueX*StatModX)^1.5+(StatValueY*StatModY)^1.5+ …]^(2/3)/100


http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44718-item ... mechanics/]Item levelMechanics
Seratha, last edit 21/08/09 wrote:There’s been a number of changes to the item level formula since Hyzenthlei’s original post on the subject and the WoWWiki page on item level is similarly out of date with no discussion occurring there, so I thought it’d be a good idea to collect the current mechanics into one place.
<snip>
ItemValue = [((Stat[1]*StatModX)^1.7095)+((Stat[2]*StatMod[2])^1.7095)+…+((Stat[n]*StatMod[n])^1.7095)]^(1/1.7095)


Top quote is from level 60, bottom from level 80. On Wowwiki it has level 70 which bottom quote says is out of date.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:46 am

Ok, but they didn't change it in WotLK.

Edit: I didn't remember that they changed the exponential factor on each stat in BC, but they still didn't change the formula, ever. Just the constants. That's specifically what I meant.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby rodos » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:20 pm

lythac wrote:Whitetooth posted a while back some of the new ratings -

Code: Select all
Level      60   70      80      81      82      83       84       85
melee hit  10   15.769  32.79   46.696  66.499   94.701  134.862  192.056
spell hit   8   12.615  26.232  37.357  53.199   75.76   107.89   153.645
crit       14   22.077  45.906  65.374  93.099  132.581  188.807  268.878
haste      10   15.769  32.79   46.696  66.499   94.701  134.862  192.056


With the jump from 70>80 high end gear with 2-3 sockets was able to remain viable as both the ratings required per % and stats on gems doubled. Now its a 6 times increase and gems are currently only having their stats doubled, even gear with 2-3 sockets shouldn't last to raiding.

Bolded part seems very interesting. Doesn't this mean that gems have been hugely devalued in Cata? Choice of gems will have only 1/3 the effect over final stats as it does now.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:13 pm

A factor of six?!?! SIX? :roll:

-- Hit capping will require like every gear slot. I don't relish the idea of interrupts and CC the aren't guaranteed.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:16 pm

and don't forget that Hit is a Blue Gem stat now!
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