Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:44 am

tlitp wrote:
knaughty wrote:I find 5-man content stifling, uninteresting, unchallenging, boring, add your terms here.

GG is changed (read : butchered) on January 20th. Knaughty achieves GG on January 26th.
Gear grinding is one thing; preposterous affirmations, on the other hand... What would you think of someone stating that ICC HMs are "boring" without ever clearing LK(N) ?


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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:33 am

To play the devil's advocate, I think his point was that before Jan 20th, Gotta Go was a seriously difficult achievement that took a lot of coordination and planning even for an ideal group composition. There were several other achievements in Glory of the Hero that were similarly difficult and required skill to complete within the first few months of Wrath's release.

In other words, the statement that 5-mans are "unchallenging" as a rule is demonstrably false. Stifling, boring, uninteresting might all be valid descriptors, but they're also highly subjective. They're also likely to be tainted by the fact that gear inflation has made most of the previously-difficult achievements very easy.

Knaughty may not have bothered to take part in 5-mans at the beginning of Wrath, and he certainly wasn't obligated to do so. But it also means he probably didn't give that particular achievement a serious try when it was very difficult, which doesn't put him in a good position to make proclamations about whether 5-man instance achievements can be tuned to be difficult.

As an analogy, compare this to someone who clears Ulduar hard modes in full Icecrown gear and concludes that Ulduar as an instance was way too easy and couldn't possibly be enjoyable. That person never had the experience of playing the content when it was hard, and thus wouldn't be a reliable source on the topic of Ulduar difficulty tuning.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby tlitp » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:58 am

knaughty wrote:I find 5-man content stifling, uninteresting, unchallenging, boring, add your terms here.

Der Teufel steckt im Detail. You could have stated that "all the 5-man content that I'm familiar with is..."; alternatively, "I'm not aware of any 5-man content that isn't...". Instead, you've merely offered an evident display of secundum quid.

The petty taunts ("utter gall","armory-trolling pedant") were both unnecessary and ineffective. Do better.

EDIT : "before Jan 20th, Gotta Go was a seriously difficult achievement". Replace the time frame with "the first two-three weeks of the expansion".
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:07 am

tlitp wrote:
knaughty wrote:I find 5-man content stifling, uninteresting, unchallenging, boring, add your terms here.

Der Teufel steckt im Detail. You could have stated that "all the 5-man content that I'm familiar with is..."; alternatively, "I'm not aware of any 5-man content that isn't...". Instead, you've merely offered an evident display of secundum quid.

The petty taunts ("utter gall","armory-trolling pedant") were both unnecessary and ineffective. Do better.

EDIT : "before Jan 20th, Gotta Go was a seriously difficult achievement". Replace the time frame with "the first two-three weeks of the expansion".


Not that I am defending Knaughty's choice of words, but your provocation was similarly worthless to the discussion. Now both of you cut it out before I have to moderate.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:09 am

Are we seriously arguing about an achievement from two years ago that had nothing to do with actually completing the dungeon? Gotta Go was never a requirement to finish Azjol'Nerub so this whole argument is stupid.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:10 am

Nikachelle wrote:Are we seriously arguing about an achievement from two years ago that had nothing to do with actually completing the dungeon? Gotta Go was never a requirement to finish Azjol'Nerub so this whole argument is stupid.


No, we're not. This thread is about gear in Cataclysm compared to gear from WotLK.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Archeth » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:58 am

I'll just say doing a "beat this boss with your eyes closed while doing a handstand" type achievement has no relevance to the general challenge of content. If we're looking at how long our ICC gear lasts in Cataclysm, we're not going to consider hard achievements tuned for level 85 gear or heroic raid encounters either (regardless if it looks like we won't even make it to 85 with that gear in the first place).
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby PsiVen » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:03 am

In terms of 5-man challenges, there aren't any good examples in WotLK. Gotta Go certainly isn't one, because even when it was hard it was a stupid gimmick that you mostly had to get lucky for with perfect timing and a highly specific group composition. The examples I am drawing from are: Heroic Shattered Halls, Heroic Shadow Labyrinth, Heroic Durnholde, Heroic Botanica, Heroic Arcatraz. Everyone who attempted these instances early in TBC knows that doing one of them in blues was a daunting challenge for the typical player. The tuning wasn't perfect, because there were few actual examples of bosses who were as challenging as the heroic trash in the instance. The gear rewards weren't perfect, because they relied almost entirely on grinding badges for rewards. These things can be fixed this time around.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Fetzie » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:49 pm

Something else to consider when debating whether gear from wrath will be useful beyond level 83 (which it won't) is they massive rise in the rate that the value of stats diminishes at. My retri gear at 80 had 42% crit and 23% haste unbuffed. At level 81 in exactly the same gear I have just about 20% crit and 14% haste. This will continue to plummet. If it continues at this rate (and I see no reason why it shouldn't) I will have about 7% crit and 5% haste by level 84. We will be forced to upgrade gear not because of its item level, but simply because the wrath stuff has not got enough of the ratings on it to make the items as good as they could be.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:03 pm

Pyrea wrote:Something else to consider when debating whether gear from wrath will be useful beyond level 83 (which it won't) is they massive rise in the rate that the value of stats diminishes at. My retri gear at 80 had 42% crit and 23% haste unbuffed. At level 81 in exactly the same gear I have just about 20% crit and 14% haste. This will continue to plummet. If it continues at this rate (and I see no reason why it shouldn't) I will have about 7% crit and 5% haste by level 84. We will be forced to upgrade gear not because of its item level, but simply because the wrath stuff has not got enough of the ratings on it to make the items as good as they could be.

I think that's kind of the same thing. :) Whether you're in ilvl 330 greens or ilvl 277 epics, you're probably going to have about the same budget, which means the same resulting stats at 85 to re-start the gearing cycle.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:06 pm

PsiVen wrote:In terms of 5-man challenges, there aren't any good examples in WotLK. Gotta Go certainly isn't one, because even when it was hard it was a stupid gimmick that you mostly had to get lucky for with perfect timing and a highly specific group composition. The examples I am drawing from are: Heroic Shattered Halls, Heroic Shadow Labyrinth, Heroic Durnholde, Heroic Botanica, Heroic Arcatraz. Everyone who attempted these instances early in TBC knows that doing one of them in blues was a daunting challenge for the typical player. The tuning wasn't perfect, because there were few actual examples of bosses who were as challenging as the heroic trash in the instance. The gear rewards weren't perfect, because they relied almost entirely on grinding badges for rewards. These things can be fixed this time around.

I think heroic HoR would be close, but it came too late to not be overgeared by most people. I also have a personal distaste for scripted instances on rails, so I don't especially like HHoR, but it certainly is challenging and could involve even a little CC on a group of characters without ToC+ raid gear.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Archeth » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:19 pm

Pyrea wrote:Something else to consider when debating whether gear from wrath will be useful beyond level 83 (which it won't) is they massive rise in the rate that the value of stats diminishes at. My retri gear at 80 had 42% crit and 23% haste unbuffed. At level 81 in exactly the same gear I have just about 20% crit and 14% haste. This will continue to plummet. If it continues at this rate (and I see no reason why it shouldn't) I will have about 7% crit and 5% haste by level 84. We will be forced to upgrade gear not because of its item level, but simply because the wrath stuff has not got enough of the ratings on it to make the items as good as they could be.

What you describe is still a function of item level, my mage's level 70 epics at level 80 didn't provide a whole lot of crit, haste and hit % anymore but the unenchanted level ~77 blues without gem slots didn't either because the amount of rating on gear was comparable. Unless new items come with totally superior itemization (things like cheaper stamina on TBC gear vs. vanilla items), you can always determine how many item levels ahead a new expansion's green/blue gear has to be in order to overtake our old high-end raid epics with gem sockets, set bonuses and old BiS enchants (in case you're unlikely to enchant greens/blues while levelling). At that cut-off point you're getting about the same amount of ratings and stats as you have on your old gear, so the effect on your combat stats will be roughly the same.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Chunes » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:13 pm

read that one
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V
Last edited by Chunes on Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Chunes » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:14 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:I think heroic HoR would be close, but it came too late to not be overgeared by most people. I also have a personal distaste for scripted instances on rails, so I don't especially like HHoR, but it certainly is challenging and could involve even a little CC on a group of characters without ToC+ raid gear.


"Undergeared" HHoR was what started my rant in the general forum. Its difficulty level is imho perfect for about a 4.8 to 5k badscore, provided the group is intelligent.

I really wish it were possible to achieve that sort of tuning for more of the dungeons and for longer spans of the gearing lifecycle.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Warsadin » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:49 pm

Archeth wrote:
Pyrea wrote:Something else to consider when debating whether gear from wrath will be useful beyond level 83 (which it won't) is they massive rise in the rate that the value of stats diminishes at. My retri gear at 80 had 42% crit and 23% haste unbuffed. At level 81 in exactly the same gear I have just about 20% crit and 14% haste. This will continue to plummet. If it continues at this rate (and I see no reason why it shouldn't) I will have about 7% crit and 5% haste by level 84. We will be forced to upgrade gear not because of its item level, but simply because the wrath stuff has not got enough of the ratings on it to make the items as good as they could be.

What you describe is still a function of item level, my mage's level 70 epics at level 80 didn't provide a whole lot of crit, haste and hit % anymore but the unenchanted level ~77 blues without gem slots didn't either because the amount of rating on gear was comparable. Unless new items come with totally superior itemization (things like cheaper stamina on TBC gear vs. vanilla items), you can always determine how many item levels ahead a new expansion's green/blue gear has to be in order to overtake our old high-end raid epics with gem sockets, set bonuses and old BiS enchants (in case you're unlikely to enchant greens/blues while levelling). At that cut-off point you're getting about the same amount of ratings and stats as you have on your old gear, so the effect on your combat stats will be roughly the same.


The stats are actually VERY inflated compared to our old gear. There will be level 85 greens that DWARF anything including heroic LK weapons. The blues at level 85 that we'll get in normal 85 dungeons will be vastly, and let me reiterate that, vastly, superior to anything we have now. Such that you would be so incredibly far behind on the relative stats still wearing your ilvl277 gear that you simply would not be able to do the raid under a normal skill level. When I say normal skill level I'm including basically everyone here except for possibly the top 100 raiders who are immensely exceptional at what they do.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... 29,r:0,s:0

That axe is a quest reward in Deepholm. Imagine what you're going to be looking at in 5 man normals at 85. They aren't going to make the same mistake again they did with LK intro-raids being so easy. The axe is only ilvl305 as well and I think the number we're looking at for craftables in beginner epic level is going to be ilvl359. See this axe here which is a craftable:

http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/76452/

Also, I think that axe is severely under budget at the moment in that screenshot, which was taken over a month ago. It will most certainly have more rating attributed to it.
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