Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:15 pm

Lieris wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Meloree wrote:Depends. If heroics were to drop ilvl 300 blues, and T11 raids dropped ilvl300 epics, then 277/284 epics might be just about appropriate and balanced for T11 raiding. And it would be nice to not just farm our way to BiS and throw it out for levelling greens.


I don't think 300 is the target for 85...? I mean I am seeing ilvl 282 or so blues from L80-81 quests...


Level 85 blues are 339+ and the epics are 359 judging by the craftables. Seriously we can forget about using any of our current gear for max level dungeons let alone raiding or heroics.

From what I can tell 264-277 stuff won't be replaced with greens but decent dungeon/quest/craftable blues will be better.


They won't be replaced with ilvl 279 greens that you get from questing at L80. I'm sure we'll replace them by 85.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Archeth » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:41 pm

You can only really handle mudflation in a new expansion in those two ways. Start new gear so much higher than the last expansion that everyone has to replace their gear within the first level, which is what many people claim happened in TBC - which isn't really true, but most people didn't have gear of a high enough level to compete with the new level 81+ items with the new stamina being cheaper in item points, but the handful of T2/T3 raiders could well keep their items till the mid or late 60s. Alternatively, tune new gear so it's just necessary for those entering with quest greens or two levels below the cap, but let previous raiders carry their high-end gear from the last expansion to varying points in the new expansion like in WotLK, based on how much "welfare" gear you collected you could replace some with dungeons blues in the mid 70s, while others got to run Naxx in T6 gear (which was admittedly too much - the cut-off point should have been somewhere just before heroics at least).

I'm assuming they go for some sort of middle ground this time, like you need higher level gear to not have an incentive to replace epics with drops out of the first dungeons, but you'll never make it close to level 85 blues and epics with even WotLK BiS gear. Obviously there's always knobs to turn - no gem slots and not retroactively changing vanilla gear to the new stamina cost lowered the value of all but the highest end vanilla gear in TBC. in WotLK we had no such changes, and the new quest rewards were only slightly better than blues from level 70 dungeons. This time we have no mastery on old gear - on the other hand high end gear tends to have more gem slots, the casual player is less likely to enchant stop-gap pieces he got while levelling (vs. having "BiS" level 80 enchants on current gear), and breaking a level 80 set bonus might take quite a bit more than just a level 83 blue item.

BTW, did they stick to WotLK's boring formula of "2 armor designs per armor class for all quest rewards, recolor slightly if necessary" with Cataclysm gear? After several alts in Northrend I'm not sure anymore I prefered this matching, but boring look to the clown suits of TBC :D

(I just realized this doesn't really belong into "tanking rotation in Cataclysm" - oops)
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:52 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Meloree wrote:Depends. If heroics were to drop ilvl 300 blues, and T11 raids dropped ilvl300 epics, then 277/284 epics might be just about appropriate and balanced for T11 raiding. And it would be nice to not just farm our way to BiS and throw it out for levelling greens.


I don't think 300 is the target for 85...? I mean I am seeing ilvl 282 or so blues from L80-81 quests...


Depends. If. Might.

PsiVen said that being able to clear Naxx in Sunwell gear was a problem, and the instance was undertuned because of it. I'm only saying that it doesn't have to be a problem, except for the rampant ilvl inflation.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby PsiVen » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:36 pm

I just don't see it being a good thing at all to be able to skip 5-man content. I want challenging 5-mans, and I want challenging raids. If your gear allows you to skip over 5-mans, umm, okay. You don't get to enjoy 5-mans. There's nothing positive about losing content. I'm not saying we should have to farm dungeons repeatedly before we can think about starting a raid, but there needs to be a clear hierarchy or we end up with dungeons with 2 items that we grind repeatedly for and bitch about their lousy droprates.

The bonus armor nerf is going to be reverted, I think. It's absolute garbage now, and just changing how much we care about EH was already going to reduce its dominance in Cataclysm. Because of the nerf, a couple of our nicer pieces become essentially underbudget and get replaced faster. Otherwise, right now you will replace everything <264 in Hyjal/Vashj'ir, start to replace more in Deepholm, and probably have only a couple items left by 84. Craftable/BoE gear is about level 84 quality and usable at 81-82, so as soon as the crafting engine starts you'll be replacing most of your gear by 83.

This is good in my book because it means that absolutely everyone will be expected to be on the same level when we hit 85 and start doing 5-mans -- so tuning content to be interesting for good players who already have gear won't make it way too hard for people with leveling gear. 277 gear has far less meaning than Sunwell gear did, and correspondingly it should be shed more quickly.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:48 pm

To contribute further to the complete de-rail of this thread (Hey, some mod want to split this?):

My recollection is that 5-man-heroic gear in WotLK was better that Sunwell gear, but the increment was small enough that you could compensate via simply being good. If Cata-85-heroic gear was 300-ish blues, it would be better than ICC-heroic-25, but the gap would be small enough that the people who were capable of getting "Light of the Dawn" could skip it.

However, the target ilevel for entry level raiding is 340+ which means that my original point from a page ago stands: ICC-heroic gear can't be used for 85 raiding. I find this annoying.

As for TBC: I didn't have Tier-3 gear, I had Tier-2.5 - close to BiS excluding Naxx-classic, including the funky OP set-bonuses from farming the hell out of the Silithus raids. I was replacing this raid gear with green quest rewards before level 63 - the gear reset was brutal. This was on my warlock, so I did value the hugely inflated stamina somewhat - I levelled as Demonology.

@Psiven:

You like 5-mans and raids. Other people like arena. I like raids. Different people like different things. I'll assume for the sake of argument that you dislike arena and find PvP boring and annoying - how would you feel if you were told "You have to do 10 rated arena matches a week for a month before you're allowed to raid?"

That's how I feel about being told "Go farm 5-mans for random drops before you're allowed to raid" I find 5-man content stifling, uninteresting, unchallenging, boring, add your terms here.

Blizzard can't possibly tune 5-mans to be challenging for top-500 guilds while still making them accessible to the other 99% of the player-base. There were some TBC heroics that were hard - one of the hellfire ones? We used to do it as two-group-speed-run-races for lulz because you could actually die if you really tried. My understanding is that Blizzard felt those instances were too hard and won't be targeting that difficulty level again.

I'm hoping to be able to skip as much of it as possible - thus: Blacksmith/Engineer.

I did enjoy the Karazhan gating - quests to go clear difficult heroics in order to get keys/attunements. That sort of stuff rocks. It's the mindless farming of the same 5-mans over and over again to get gear that pisses me off.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:54 pm

PsiVen wrote:I just don't see it being a good thing at all to be able to skip 5-man content. I want challenging 5-mans, and I want challenging raids. If your gear allows you to skip over 5-mans, umm, okay. You don't get to enjoy 5-mans. There's nothing positive about losing content. I'm not saying we should have to farm dungeons repeatedly before we can think about starting a raid, but there needs to be a clear hierarchy or we end up with dungeons with 2 items that we grind repeatedly for and bitch about their lousy droprates.

The bonus armor nerf is going to be reverted, I think. It's absolute garbage now, and just changing how much we care about EH was already going to reduce its dominance in Cataclysm. Because of the nerf, a couple of our nicer pieces become essentially underbudget and get replaced faster. Otherwise, right now you will replace everything <264 in Hyjal/Vashj'ir, start to replace more in Deepholm, and probably have only a couple items left by 84. Craftable/BoE gear is about level 84 quality and usable at 81-82, so as soon as the crafting engine starts you'll be replacing most of your gear by 83.

This is good in my book because it means that absolutely everyone will be expected to be on the same level when we hit 85 and start doing 5-mans -- so tuning content to be interesting for good players who already have gear won't make it way too hard for people with leveling gear. 277 gear has far less meaning than Sunwell gear did, and correspondingly it should be shed more quickly.


That's fair, logical, and cogent.

I on the other hand, think that being forced to do 5-mans is a bad thing, based on this logic:

1) If Heroics are required prior to raiding, then they're probably not going to be very hard, because Blizzard wants everyone to be able to raid with minimal hoops.
2) If Heroics are easy, then I don't tend to find them interesting.
2a) The tank balance is way out for heroics, it means I put in a bunch of extra time running heroics for my guidies, and it's just a massive grindfest, and it's not fun. This is true even if they're difficult and rewarding. Early in the expansion there aren't a bunch of alts to take care of this duty, not are there strong offspecs, probably.
3) Farming H-LK and H-Halion for 6-7 months should give us some kind of leg up, right?
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby steadypal » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:20 pm

agree with the heroic gear being needed, its not fun when raiding guilds want to raid asap, with 3 guild tanks, needing to mass farm heroics to help them, and other guildies get geared out, then once we want to gear our alts,,, theirs crickets chirping and having to LFG :P lol
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby PsiVen » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:28 pm

From what I've seen of Cataclysm 5-mans and the statements they've made about them, I can believe that they will be as difficult as the ones in TBC. The critical difference is in the reward. See, in TBC heroics were a great challenge for even seasoned raiders... if you started attempting them right away. Then as you started to do Kara, you got epics and the dungeons weren't so intimidating anymore. But the dungeons themselves offered such crappy rewards that wearing full heroic gear wasn't enough to make heroics reasonable difficulty for the masses. So they were nerfed repeatedly and decisively. In Cataclysm, we have Blizzard realizing that the thirst for challenging content has returned. They can design these brutal heroics, and make the rewards good enough that most players can gear up in regular dungeons and the easier heroics to work their way up.

That is my ideal. A reasonable challenge to those who want to take it on, that dissipates as gear improves as all content must. I honestly don't feel that lots of high-end raid gear should be much of an advantage at 85, because 90% of the people who want full 264 gear can obtain it with no need whatsoever to play well or put in effort beyond time spent. 277/284 gear is nowhere near high enough ilvl to make up the gap of "you should replace everything questing" and "you should be able to start raiding at 85 with this", there's just no way it would work.

Now, if you're saying it doesn't matter how difficult they are, you just don't like 5-mans... I'm not sure Blizzard intends to cater to that. PvE has a linked hierarchy. In TBC it went 5-mans -> heroics -> 10-mans -> 25-mans. In WotLK it went heroics -> optional 10-mans -> 25-mans. In Cataclysm it's reasonable to expect that new players will actually see the max-level dungeons before they get flipped to heroic, so it may end up: 5-mans -> heroics -> 10/25-mans. PvP has a different hierarchy altogether that was always 5-mans -> Battlegrounds -> Arenas, and now Rated BGs are added to final tier. It's entirely separate, and has been since Vanilla; you're right that I would be upset if I had to PvP to raid, but that's very different.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:09 pm

Well, if this is just a "candy and nuts" thread, I want to toss in that as much as Knaughty doesn't want to have to do 5-mans to raid, I just as strongly don't want to do 25 mans to get the best gear or challenging raid content. So, I'm glad they'll be catering to at least one of us. :)
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby knaughty » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:55 pm

In WotLK it went heroics -> optional 10-mans -> 25-mans.

Except it didn't.

It went:
Either: Sunwell gear or Heroics or Crafted gear
Then: Naxx-10 or Naxx-25

The 264 vs 277/284 gap is rather small considering the difficulty increment between those tiers, but it is still easy enough to force the PuG-264-easy-mode-farming-mainstream-raider to upgrade their gear without forcing the LK-25-hard guilds to grind heroics endlessly.

If 85-heroic gear was roughly ilevel 310-ish blue, the gap from 264-epic to 310-blue is going to be enough to force ye olde average raider to upgrade, but the 277/284 people can probably compensate with better execution.

With blues being more live ilvl 350-ish, it'll be Paragon plus maybe three other guilds that will clear the first tier in their 277 gear. Ajantis @ world 380-ish will need our quest blues.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:08 pm

Knaughty I very much doubt you will need to farm 5 mans for gear to be able to raid. I bet a mix of epic craftables, reputation and quest rewards will do you fine. In the last two expansions I can't think of more than a handful of pre-raid dungeon drops that were worth farming (Devilshark Cape, Gossamer, Commendation of KT, Red Sword of Courage...). If you don't want to do them at all I am sure you will cope.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Chasey » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:48 pm

I was on a poorly progressed server I guess. I was in a mix of Isle badge gear, T5 and crafted gear when wrath hit. My guild at the times rule was "no TBC gear at all in Naxx". I was forced to run heroics.

I like to raid as well and I think that Heroics are part of raiding. Maybe i'm not 'leet skill wise but you see quite a few of the boss mechanics from heroics in raids. It allows you to see how you run on a more intimate basis with guilies, how the fix mistakes, how the react to a bad pull or w/e. Its a smaller 10 min to 40 min raid. TBC had some fun Heroics, wrath...not so much.

A few things, if you think TBC heroics weren't tough, reroll get to 70 in the quest gear and rep loot you can get and rerun them. Skill will take you far but pulling 9 pulls is scary, no matter the skill level you have. That gear is a far cry from T5 T6 or Sunwell. So yes maybe you could die on a speed run but juggling treat, keeping your ass alive and making sure you didn't get feared/stunned/mc'd into a pat kept you on your toes.

Replacing gear at 83-85 will happen, but remember no gear piece is prefect so I'm guess HLK loot will if it offers more EH/hit/exp probably be better than a generic crafted epic that blizz puts stats on to allow a welfare 232 drop user to upgrade.

I do however hope that the epic gimme gear aquired from badges that anyone can get is gone in Cata. Yes I liked you didn't need to rerun everything to gear a tank/healer like you had to in TBC but the fact that any baddie who runs alot of pugs, plays the AH or gets lucky can have 264 gear w/o ever really trying sucks.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby tlitp » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:56 pm

knaughty wrote:I find 5-man content stifling, uninteresting, unchallenging, boring, add your terms here.

GG is changed (read : butchered) on January 20th. Knaughty achieves GG on January 26th.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:29 am

tlitp wrote:
knaughty wrote:I find 5-man content stifling, uninteresting, unchallenging, boring, add your terms here.

GG is changed (read : butchered) on January 20th. Knaughty achieves GG on January 26th.
Gear grinding is one thing; preposterous affirmations, on the other hand...

I'm sorry, but do you really have the utter gall to claim that you can analyse my feelings about something based on some random achievement that I got by accident? Or are you make the ridiculously irrational claim that I am unable to complete some stupid 5-man achievement if I was interested?

It's all so clear now! I must have deliberately done "GG" the week after it was nerfed in some desperate attempt to earn nerd points or complete the meta! Then I ignored completing it for another 18 months!

I did eventually get one of the heroic achievements deliberately: On the 12th of July 2010 I got Ruby + Emerald Void deliberately because I noticed that the "random heroic" feature had led to me getting the rest of the dungeon meta by accident - though I was paying so much attention that I didn't notice for two months. I'm sure many of the others were deliberate on the part of whoever I was grouped with, but I had nothing to do with them happening other than complying with random requests to stand on one leg or equivalent stupidity from friends or guildies.

The majority of my 5-man grinding has been in order to earn the badges required to gear up at a speed I considered adequate, or as favours for guild-members.

I would have thought that the fact I never even did 7 out of 12 normal-mode dungeons at all would perhaps be a better indication of my feelings about 5-mans, if you're going to be an armory-trolling pedant.

Or if you're implying that I can't do difficult 5-man content, note the TBC reputations which were earned back when heroics were actually difficult. Or if you want a "small scale tanking" skill-check for WotLK from back when heroics were serious business, how about Twillight Zone on the 4th of January 2009?
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby hoho » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:10 am

Sabindeus wrote:The sockets prevent your 264 stuff from being replaced by greens.
True, at least for L80-82 greens. At 83 things might get different. E.g on my priest I replaced my LK25 normal staff with L83 green MH+OH. Even without enchants and gems they were significant upgrades for both DPS and manapool. I had seen sidegrades before that but didn't bother to use them due to having to re-enchant them to be an upgrade.
Meloree wrote:I on the other hand, think that being forced to do 5-mans is a bad thing, based on this logic:

1) If Heroics are required prior to raiding, then they're probably not going to be very hard, because Blizzard wants everyone to be able to raid with minimal hoops.
I'm fairly certain heroics will be considerably harder than in WotLK. Not quite as hard as in TBC but close. I also expect first raids to need at least full blue gear to be able to kill a few bosses.
Meloree wrote:3) Farming H-LK and H-Halion for 6-7 months should give us some kind of leg up, right?
well, you can certainly keep your skill level up. Don't expect the gear to be much of use though :)



I expect that people won't be jumping straight to raids as soon as they ding 85, they'll at least need a decent set of crafted/5-man blues. You will definitely not be raiding T11 in ICC (heroic) gear, you'll have about half the HP/manapool that you would in quest/instance blues. DPS will likely suffer the least as they will have a whole lot of crit/haste on their gear balancing out the lack of main DPS stat (int/agi/str), no such luck for healers/tanks as they will need the HP and spirit they would get on cata gear.
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