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Build 12857 (31.8.10)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Phonic » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:38 pm

Why do they keep changing the names of all the Seals... so confusing :p
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby steadypal » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:40 pm

just me or did holy and ret get a totally new rework of abilties, while prot just gets the leftover holy power, prot cannot be done imo, we are basically the same as live.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Arianne » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:59 pm

I agree. I don't usually take PoJ either. On the other hand, I still don't think that PoJ giving HoPo is going to be all that useful in PVE. Stun, Fear or Immobilize. Let's see... General Zarithrian fears regularly. BQL fears (2-3 times per fight). Marrowgar doesn't immobilize tanks (if bone spike is considered an immobilize). Blood wing trash stuns. I can't think of anything else in ICC that would cause HoPo generation via PoJ. Faction Champions in ToC. Some trash in Ulduar. Some debuffs on YS maybe?
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby steadypal » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:25 pm

we have no clue about the raid bosses in cata, no point talking about cata POJ in icc raids
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:41 pm

steadypal wrote:we have no clue about the raid bosses in cata, no point talking about cata POJ in icc raids


Good point. Considering that tanks are only gonna go from 100% to 0% in 4-5 secs with no heals in Cata, I see fears/stuns be more likely part of boss encounters in the new encounters.

I still would not like the idea of PoJ actually being a secondary HoPow generator for tankadins however. They need something from within the prot tree, not as part of a tankadins subspeccing into retribution -- specially since ghostcrawler always talks about trying to move away from cookie cutter builds.

Cuz if that's the case, guess what? having 7 points in retribution is going to be part of the cookie cutter.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:43 pm

Well I always take PoJ anyway. :P
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:01 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Well I always take PoJ anyway. :P


Yeah, but there's a difference -- at this point, PoJ is not a mandatory but optional talent. If prot doesnt get another way to generate HoPow but PoJ, then it becomes mandatory. That's what I dont like.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby PsiVen » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:53 pm

No it doesn't. Getting 1 HP from stun/fear/immob is completely useless on most fights, and you'd barely notice it on the ones with frequent use. The run speed from PoJ makes it more mandatory than extra combo points for getting CCed.

The only thing that pisses me off is that I won't be able to get PoJ at 80 anymore. Ugh, I hate having so few talent points.

Um excuse me but you missed the important parts of build 12857 codename: we heard you like aoe so we put some aoe in your aoe so you can aoe while you aoe.


These buffs aren't very surprising, considering they nerfed AoE so hard that nobody uses it at all anymore. That was never the answer, we just need to be forced to CC or get killed by overwhelming damage. It's always been a tuning problem to assume zero CC for trash that isn't immune to it, because anyone smart enough to use some will totally trivialize it.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:04 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Well I always take PoJ anyway. :P


Yeah, but there's a difference -- at this point, PoJ is not a mandatory but optional talent. If prot doesnt get another way to generate HoPow but PoJ, then it becomes mandatory. That's what I dont like.


I think generating 2-3 more Holy Power over the course of a couple two-minute heroic 5-man bosses is nowhere near "mandatory."

Even if it generated 1 more HP per minute on a particular raid boss fight, you could hardly call that more than a gimmick spec.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:21 pm

Point there -- I guess I'm just upset that protection seems to be falling way behind the other two trees when it comes to HoPow... *takes a deep breathe*
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Modal » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:39 pm

That's not something to be upset about, though. There's no Holy Power race you're going to lose or something. Prot ought to have a steady flow of Holy Power, IMO. It's ok for dps to have spikey or unpredictable resource availability, but not so desirable for tanks.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Arincia » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:42 pm

I almost wish prot paladins had holy's blessed life talent (or something similar). It would certainly make us unique as a tank class. Allowing us to we generate a holy power every 2 seconds when we get hit turns into a pseudo rage mechanic (similiar to DKs runic power). It would make interesting scenarios then with having no cool down on SoR we could use it more often and actually fill quite a lot of gaps. The problem is though that it would make WoG spamming a very realistic factor and might be hard to be balanced around other tanks for encounters. The only reason i suspect blizzard isn't adding in more sources is because we would then use SoR or WoG more then they would like us to. 30 hp a minute for 10 more SoR might be to much but adding in more sources wouldn't be bad.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Yelena » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:04 pm

Spiky and otherwise unpredictable resource generation for tanks can (and very likely will) lead to balancing issues. As we've all seen in one form or another; if RNG can find a way to screw you over, it will.

For the sake of example: If we were balanced around *usually* getting a bonus HoPo once within a 15 second window or so, what would happen to our output if RNG decided to screw us and we didn't get that extra proc over a span of 2+ minutes? It's an extreme example, but still an entirely possible outcome resulting from RNG (much like watching the Unreliable Organ's stack drop while tanking both Valanar and Taldaram).

Steady and predictable resource generation lends to easier to balance mechanics between the tanks. Once number-tuning gets a better pass, and we can see what our abilities will actually hit for, Grand Crusader procs may well (and really should) make me want to hit Avenger's Shield next or at least before the next Crusader Strike. That type of RNG is easy to adapt to, as it's not tied to resource generation (currently, at least). If resource generation became very RNG in nature, that could lead to strange things happening to the rotation over both small and large time frames, as well as have threat implications (positive and/or negative).
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:08 pm

It's hard to call Retribution's hopow regen spiky when they generate it at a much faster rate than us -- and in our case, if we miss our CS or HotR, there goes our HoPow for that CD
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Archeth » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:16 pm

PsiVen wrote:
Um excuse me but you missed the important parts of build 12857 codename: we heard you like aoe so we put some aoe in your aoe so you can aoe while you aoe.


These buffs aren't very surprising, considering they nerfed AoE so hard that nobody uses it at all anymore. That was never the answer, we just need to be forced to CC or get killed by overwhelming damage. It's always been a tuning problem to assume zero CC for trash that isn't immune to it, because anyone smart enough to use some will totally trivialize it.

I'm wondering if 33% more base damage is enough to make people use it again on more than a few token huge-number-of-mobs pulls. Why the hell they think AoE is such a big problem that they hit it that hard with the nerf bat is beyond me TBH.
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