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Build 12857 (31.8.10)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Candiru » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:30 am

Are you honestly saying that ICC hard mode is harder now than fights like Firefighter were for healing when they were new? You have a lot more int now, so a lot more mana and regen...
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Archeth » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:38 am

You mean aside from the fact that yes, ICC-25H bosses were tuned for people in the higher level gear out of ToC and ICC, and that Illumination mana refunds are half as good as they were during Firefighter but crit % isn't even remotely twice as high? I'm not saying all ICC-25H encounters are hard on paladin mana. But without the zone buff and near-BiS gear, some were.
Last edited by Archeth on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby dmok » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:39 am

Candiru wrote:Are you honestly saying that ICC hard mode is harder now than fights like Firefighter were for healing when they were new? You have a lot more int now, so a lot more mana and regen...

I'm think he's saying that mana regen outside of divine plea has been nerfed since then - mainly illumination.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Thornir » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:39 am

Ghostcrawler wrote:Seal of Insight will improve your mana regen and self healing. It will give you a little of each if you only Judge and give you more (but not a broken amount) if you're ever in a position where you can melee the target. There is also a glyph to improve your healing while Insight is active. I'll concede that running a Seal is probably more important for a Ret or perhaps even Prot paladin than a Holy paladin, but there's still no reason not to do so.


So I guess that our mana regen is being pulled out of Divine Plea and placed into the Seal. The mana regen isn't going away, it's just being moved. Or at least, that's what I think he's saying.

on Seal of R:

Ghostcrawler wrote:Seal of Righteousness and Seal of Justice didn't merge. Seal of Righteousness is unchanged. We just added a little damage to Seal of Justice so that paladins didn't have to give up all Seal damage (and talents etc. that affect them) in order to get the Justice effect.


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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Arianne » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:04 pm

They added the -50% healing to DP so that ProtRet or ProtHoly paladins with Guarded by the Light weren't overpowered. I imagine that now that no spec has an auto-refreshing DP they'll probably take the -50% off of it (or reduce it).
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby dmok » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:18 pm

Thornir wrote:So I guess that our mana regen is being pulled out of Divine Plea and placed into the Seal. The mana regen isn't going away, it's just being moved. Or at least, that's what I think he's saying.

I'm pretty sure we're still going to use Seal of Censure (the new SoV) - and that Seal of Insight is going to be the seal of choice for holy paladins and that it will be useful for them outside of glyphs.

At least that's what *I* think he's trying to get across.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:27 pm

No what he's saying is that the benefit to your intended role of having a Seal on at all is significantly higher for Prot or Ret than Holy. Holy Paladins clearly want to run Seal of Insight, but if they have no Seal up whatsoever, they aren't as fucked as Prot or Ret would be if they had no Seal up. That's what he's saying.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Ryyu » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:51 pm

My concern is how HotR will do after the 2 set is lost, I'm guessing a lot of the data gathered is from at least 2/5 t10s. Im praying the cons nerf wasn't without this in mind.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:59 pm

Ryyu wrote:My concern is how HotR will do after the 2 set is lost, I'm guessing a lot of the data gathered is from at least 2/5 t10s. Im praying the cons nerf wasn't without this in mind.


You can only call it a nerf to consecration if you're talking about the base consecration and not the improved version (HG)

I mean, consecration should not be in a bad spot after you put those two points in HG
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Paxen » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:00 pm

theckhd wrote:Healers already have something to focus on - reacting to damage taken and choosing where, when, and how to apply heals. They arguably have the least need for a rotation model, because they already have something keeping their decision-making neurons active at all times. Worse yet, their brains will generally jump to "what heal do I need right now for this specific situation," which a rotation wouldn't intuitively mesh with.


Agree here - I play a shaman, and I already dislike all the interactions Riptide brings (buffed chain heal, +haste from 2t10, need to use every 15 seconds to keep t10 relic up). It's fun on fights like Valkyrs or Blood Queen, but that's because those fights are otherwise incredibly monotonous - spam spam spam spam, move a bit during fear/after color switch, and then spam more. Trying to bounce chain heals off expiring riptide buffs at least gives me something interesting to do.

On fights with more varied damage maintaining the t10 relic with riptide is a pain (it's often not the ideal heal, or maybe it's on cooldown when I need it) and bouncing chain heals off the buff is often counterproductive, as there's no guarantee that the target with the riptide buff is the one that needs the chain heal.

I wish blizz would try to generally make the game interesting through the environment, and not through spell rotations.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby kaanman36 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:03 pm

Ryyu wrote:My concern is how HotR will do after the 2 set is lost, I'm guessing a lot of the data gathered is from at least 2/5 t10s. Im praying the cons nerf wasn't without this in mind.


You gotta give Blizzard more credit than this.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Thornir » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:10 pm

dmok wrote:
Thornir wrote:So I guess that our mana regen is being pulled out of Divine Plea and placed into the Seal. The mana regen isn't going away, it's just being moved. Or at least, that's what I think he's saying.

I'm pretty sure we're still going to use Seal of Censure (the new SoV) - and that Seal of Insight is going to be the seal of choice for holy paladins and that it will be useful for them outside of glyphs.

At least that's what *I* think he's trying to get across.


I'm sorry, My phrasing was quite off. :?

By "our", I meant holy paladins.

I very much agree that mana regen is one too many things to worry about as Maintankadins.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:26 pm

What bothers me, just like someone mentioned in the first page, is that devs seem to keep giving ret ways to generate HoPow while Prots are the last ones in that matter.

The way I see it now, to take advantage of the change to PoJ (which I normally don't take and prefer to use those points somewhere else and be just fine with Tuskarr's) is to go something like this

http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#s0hZcrhfRzddMucbM
or
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#sZcrhfRuddMucbM

My original plan was to go 3/33/5 but with PoJ being a way to generate HoPow, I had to reconsider things, much to my chagrin.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:29 pm

How many times do you expect to be stunned, feared, or immobilized while tanking?
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:30 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:How many times do you expect to be stunned, feared, or immobilized while tanking?


Let's see, I know Marwin fears you about 2 times per fight, 3 if dps is slow... BQ fears you as well... argh~

Well, my point still stands that devs keep leaving prot behind when it comes to HoPow generation.
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