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Build 12857 (31.8.10)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Ryyu » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:25 am

Apprently this Mystery build which is not yet on the beta has been found.
Pala sheet

Divine Plea now let you gain 10% (down from 25%) of your total mana over 15 sec. Cooldown changed to 2 min, up from 1 min.
Consecration now scales from 22% of AP and 22% of Spell Power, down from 32%.
Exorcism mana cost changed from 20% base mana (up from 8% of base mana). Cooldown removed.
Lay on Hands cooldown reduced from 20 min to 10 min.
Seal of Righteousness is gone, effect merged in Seal of Justice.
Tower of Radiance now procs from Holy Shock, Flash of Light, Holy Light or Divine Light.
Blessed Life now has a chance to proc whenever you take direct damage. (Old - "All attacks against you")
Illumination is gone.
Denounce revamped - Reduces the mana cost of Exorcism by 25/50%. In addition, you have a 50/100% chance when casting Holy Shock to make your next Exorcism spell instant and cost no mana.
Enlightened Judgements is now a Tier 4 talent, up from Tier 3. Healing value increased by 30%.
Healing Light renamed to Blazing Light - Increases the damage of your Holy Shock and Exorcism by 10/20%. (No longer affects Word of Glory's healing)
Arbiter of the Light no longer affects Holy Light.
Conviction is back as a Holy Tier 5 talent - Gives you a 1/2/3% bonus to damage and healing for 15 sec after causing a critical effect from a weapon swing, spell, or ability. This effect stacks up to 3 times.
Daybreak (Tier 3) *New* - Your Flash of Light, Holy Light and Divine Light have a 15/30% chance of resetting the cooldown on your Holy Shock.

Protection
Seal of Justice now deals [ 0.5% of MWS * AP + 1% of MWS * Spell Power ] additional Holy damage on each hit.
Vindication now has a chance to reduce physical damage done by the primary target of the skills. (Old - All targets)
Grand Crusader now only procs from damage dealt to your primary target.
Sanctuary now also reduces all damage taken by 3/7/10%.

Retribution
Selfless Healer now has a 50/100% chance to proc, up from 30/60%.
The Art of War revamped - Your melee attacks have a 7/14/20% chance to reduce the cast time by 100%, reduce mana cost by 60%, and increase damage by 60% of your next Exorcism.
Pursuit of Justice additional effect - You have a 50/100% chance to gain a charge of Holy Power when struck by a Stun, Fear or Immobilize effect.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Sharlos » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:06 am

/cry
/wave goodbye to Illumination, Seal of Righteousness
/wave hello to a signature ret talent in the holy tree...
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Archeth » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:07 am

if that goes in it's one hell of a nerf to holy paladin mana management
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Candiru » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:25 am

HolyPaladins in WOTLK can't go oom though, so that's not a bad thing!

And they have gained all those free WoG heals too.

Seal of Truth still procs from judgement doesn't it? And that's a huge heap of mana. Not to mention meleeing for mana since they have instant cast AoE heals now..

Divine Plea is being nerfed, but it was far too powerful really, having a holy paladin's mana only need to cast 4mins for them to cast forever!
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Chicken » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:32 am

They appear to have nerfed mana regeneration in general for all the healers looking at the other changes.

At any rate, seems they're getting to the 'tweaking the numbers' stage, which is a good sign when it comes to them finishing the expansion this year.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Lumennon » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:46 am

I love how they constantly add new ways to generate Holy Power to specs who are still in desperate need (Ret) and never add anything like that to the specs who already have plenty of HoPo to go around, like Prot-

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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Chicken » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:48 am

This is a carefully kept secret by the tankadin tanking community. But Pursuit of Justice is actually a talent we can (and likely will!) pick up.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:01 am

It's not like we can go ahead and post about it on the official forums, considering it was never deployed >.>

Also... Sanctuary reduces damage taken by 3/7/10%? Something is wrong with this build....

I agree with Lumen on the HoPow regen however~
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby sherck » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:13 am

Long post inc...

Ryyu wrote: Divine Plea now let you gain 10% (down from 25%) of your total mana over 15 sec. Cooldown changed to 2 min, up from 1 min.


The new Shadowfiend or Innervate. I hope it does not still retain its negative healing component because if it does, it will be near useless for a Holy Paladin. 5k mana return on a 50k mana pool? Wow that is a drop in the bucket. Use it in between trash pulls.

Ryyu wrote: Consecration now scales from 22% of AP and 22% of Spell Power, down from 32%.


AoE to the ground, baby.

Ryyu wrote: Exorcism mana cost changed from 20% base mana (up from 8% of base mana). Cooldown removed.

Denounce revamped - Reduces the mana cost of Exorcism by 25/50%. In addition, you have a 50/100% chance when casting Holy Shock to make your next Exorcism spell instant and cost no mana.


So now does every spec have a talent that makes Exorcism mana free and instant cast? Removal of the CD was necessary in order to make sure you got full effect from your various procs but I just don't know why Blizzard has decided to hang "this" as our iconic signature move (besides Crusader Strike, underwhelmed). Changing the mana cost will increase our desire to use it more when we get the proc (except for Holy that gets it now at a 50% cost).

Ryyu wrote: Lay on Hands cooldown reduced from 20 min to 10 min.


I wonder if the Glyph will still exist to lower its CD more (I suspect not). At 10 minutes, it should be up for just about every boss fight in an instance (until you outgear it and run the whole thing in 15 minutes) so that is a good thing.

Ryyu wrote: Seal of Righteousness is gone, effect merged in Seal of Justice.

Seal of Justice now deals [ 0.5% of MWS * AP + 1% of MWS * Spell Power ] additional Holy damage on each hit.


Sigh...I don't really care but I like the name of Seal of Righteousness rather than Seal of Justice. Justice just has too many negative thoughts about it from me. I will get over it but...

Ryyu wrote: Tower of Radiance now procs from Holy Shock, Flash of Light, Holy Light or Divine Light.


Ummm, I am assuming that they removed Word of Glory from this list since they did not want a mana-free heal to be advancing the resource towards another mana free heal....OR...Tower was procing from Divine Radiance and it was building HoPow charges one per second which is not the design behind the talent.

Ryyu wrote: Blessed Life now has a chance to proc whenever you take direct damage. (Old - "All attacks against you")


Meh, now just a leveling talent or PvP talent. Just became fairly useless for PvE.

Ryyu wrote: Illumination is gone.


Sigh...I knew this was coming as soon as they announced that Holy Paladins were moving to a Spirit regen model. This and the Divine Plea changes make me a sad Paladin. Sure, the Spirit model may end up returning more mana over time but I liked being different from the other guys. Now, no more and I understand why Blizzard is doing it but it still makes ma a sad panda.

Ryyu wrote: Enlightened Judgements is now a Tier 4 talent, up from Tier 3. Healing value increased by 30%.


I am not seeing this one. Okay, I judge and get healed at the same time which is SO not as useful as the Priest talent of doing a Smite and then geting a free SMART HEAL on whoever nearby is at lowest health.

Paladins get an additional benefit from Judging (Haste) and Priests get an additional benefit from Smiting (Evanglism charges). I don't see the self heal being nearly as useful as the smart heal and so I really don't know if I see this as much more than a PvP talent.

Ryyu wrote: Healing Light renamed to Blazing Light - Increases the damage of your Holy Shock and Exorcism by 10/20%. (No longer affects Word of Glory's healing)


Ummm, I hope this still increases the healing portion of Holy Shock and not just damage? Any confirmation? This talent becomes useless for Holy if they remove the + Healing portion of it.

Ryyu wrote: Arbiter of the Light no longer affects Holy Light.


Fine. Whatever. Less increased Crit chance for our 2nd or 3rd most cast heal (inchangable with Word of Glory following Holy Shock).

Ryyu wrote: Conviction is back as a Holy Tier 5 talent - Gives you a 1/2/3% bonus to damage and healing for 15 sec after causing a critical effect from a weapon swing, spell, or ability. This effect stacks up to 3 times.


Woot. I love this mechanic and was very sad when it was removed from Ret. The change to Illumination wanted me to stop stacking Crit rating but now this change makes me want to value Crit again. A 9% bonus to healing for doing what we do; I love it.

Ryyu wrote:Daybreak (Tier 3) *New* - Your Flash of Light, Holy Light and Divine Light have a 15/30% chance of resetting the cooldown on your Holy Shock.


Hey, I like this a lot. I like that we now have two variable class machanics we need to watch for as we heal; HoPow ==> WoG and now Daybreak to get that next Holy Shock off.

====
It appears that Holy Paladin healing style is really beginning to take shape and it comes down to a priority system.

#1: Holy Shock whenever off CD. Mana efficient, should heal for a good amount with the number of talents supporting it and generates Holy Power.
#2: 3-charge Word of Glory. Mana free heal. Enough said.
#3: Holy Light is the "normal" filler spell.

I would bet that these three spells will end up being 70-80% of all heals that a Holy Paladin casts.

Flash of Light is now probably pretty useless. If party members are not dying inside of 2 GCD, then I don't see the point of casting a quick, small, inefficient heal that costs (currently) 5x the mana cost just to save 1.0 seconds off the cast time. Cast holy Light or wait until the next Holy Shock is off CD. I know the numbers will change but if people are not dying RIGHT NOW, then I don't see the purpose of FoL.

Divine Light will still be needed when the tank takes a spike. No problem with this heal in the toolkit but I suspect that if you play well, you will not be using it a ton. I imagine it somewhat like Healing Touch is to Druids right now. Perhaps cast a bit more but not a ton more.

Divine Radiance will be on a 30-sec CD with talents. I suspect that it will not be good enough to use on CD "just because" but if there are 4 or more people damaged, then it will be a nice spell that will be fairly mana efficient when used. I see this being our next most used spell after Holy Shock, Word of Glory and Holy Light.

Light of Dawn sounds cool and I hope that they make it so good that you are just DYING to have it come off CD so you can use it again. I mean, watching the CD count down so that you can use it the second it is up kind of good spell. No other healer has a heal with this type of CD length that is not an "emergency" heal (Tranquility, Divine Hymn).

Judge for Haste, keep Beacon up, Cleanse, use Hand spells, melee for Insight returns.

Overall, I like the direction Holy Paladins are going. Am concerned with some of the numbers I am hearing about in Beta but it is still early and there is plently of time to make the numbers work.

But the mechanics sound pretty fun. I think Blizzard has done a good job in changing Holy Paladins that they added play depth and intersting mechanics. However, I am afraid that they appear to be losing some of the unique flavor of Holy Paladins and that he will end up feeling more like other healing classes.

Cheers,
Last edited by sherck on Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Chicken » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:14 am

The Sanctuary change would give us the same passive damage reduction that Warriors have which we currently lack on beta, so that change makes sense.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:42 am

Chicken wrote:The Sanctuary change would give us the same passive damage reduction that Warriors have which we currently lack on beta, so that change makes sense.


What I remember however, is that the damage reduction was supposed to be baked in into the spec itself, and not coming from putting points in a talent.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Gideon » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:07 am

Were you thinking of skipping Sanctuary?
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Invisusira » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:09 am

Um excuse me but you missed the important parts of build 12857 codename: we heard you like aoe so we put some aoe in your aoe so you can aoe while you aoe.

Death Knight
Blood Boil now deals [ 8% of AP + 297 ] damage, up from [ 6% of AP + 223 ].

Druid
Hurricane base damage increased by 33%.
Starfall now has a 40 yards range, up from 30 yards. Base damage increased by 33%.
Swipe (Bear) base damage increased by 33%.
Swipe (Cat) now deals 215% weapon damage, up from 125%.

Mage
Flamestrike base damage increased by 33%.
Blizzard base damage increased by 33%.

Paladin
Consecration now scales from 22% of AP and 22% of Spell Power, down from 32%.
Vindication now has a chance to reduce physical damage done by the primary target of the skills. (Old - All targets)
Grand Crusader now only procs from damage dealt to your primary target.

Priest
Holy Nova base damage increased by 33%.
Sin and Punishment now affects enemy targets within 10 yards, up from 6 yards. Additional effect - When your Mind Flay critically hits, the cooldown of your Shadowfiend is reduced by 10/20 sec.

Rogue
Fan of Knives now deals 80% of weapon damage, up from 60%.

Shaman
Magma Totem base damage increased by 33%.
Fire Nova base damage increased by 33%.
Improved Fire Nova is now a Tier 4 Enhancement Talent - Increases the damage done by your Fire Nova by 10/20% and reduces the cooldown by 2/4 sec.

Warlock
Seed of Corruption base AE damage increased by 33%.
Hellfire base damage increased by 33%.
Rain of Fire base damage increased by 33%. Range increased from 30 yards to 35 yards.

Warrior
Sweeping Strikes now lasts 30 sec instead of lasting 5 attacks. Cooldown not changed yet.
Blood and Thunder is now a Tier 1 talent, down from Tier 2.

Blizzard wrote:Do consider that you won't be AE'ing yourselves through Cataclysm content the way you do currently.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby Inscrutiable » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:42 am

Invisusira wrote:Um excuse me but you missed the important parts of build 12857 codename: we heard you like aoe so we put some aoe in your aoe so you can aoe while you aoe.

Death Knight
Blood Boil now deals [ 8% of AP + 297 ] damage, up from [ 6% of AP + 223 ].

Druid
Hurricane base damage increased by 33%.
Starfall now has a 40 yards range, up from 30 yards. Base damage increased by 33%.
Swipe (Bear) base damage increased by 33%.
Swipe (Cat) now deals 215% weapon damage, up from 125%.

Mage
Flamestrike base damage increased by 33%.
Blizzard base damage increased by 33%.

Paladin
Consecration now scales from 22% of AP and 22% of Spell Power, down from 32%.
Vindication now has a chance to reduce physical damage done by the primary target of the skills. (Old - All targets)
Grand Crusader now only procs from damage dealt to your primary target.

Priest
Holy Nova base damage increased by 33%.
Sin and Punishment now affects enemy targets within 10 yards, up from 6 yards. Additional effect - When your Mind Flay critically hits, the cooldown of your Shadowfiend is reduced by 10/20 sec.

Rogue
Fan of Knives now deals 80% of weapon damage, up from 60%.

Shaman
Magma Totem base damage increased by 33%.
Fire Nova base damage increased by 33%.
Improved Fire Nova is now a Tier 4 Enhancement Talent - Increases the damage done by your Fire Nova by 10/20% and reduces the cooldown by 2/4 sec.

Warlock
Seed of Corruption base AE damage increased by 33%.
Hellfire base damage increased by 33%.
Rain of Fire base damage increased by 33%. Range increased from 30 yards to 35 yards.

Warrior
Sweeping Strikes now lasts 30 sec instead of lasting 5 attacks. Cooldown not changed yet.
Blood and Thunder is now a Tier 1 talent, down from Tier 2.

Blizzard wrote:Do consider that you won't be AE'ing yourselves through Cataclysm content the way you do currently.


Fun part about all that is while Bear tanks get increased AoE threat generation with a move which defies physics and hits targets behind them, Paladin tanks lose threat generation from consecration. At least they finally resolved the question in my head of "why do all the other classes get reduced damage stuff but not us?".

I hope they do something to even out our rotation and increase our threat... I don't want to be the "utility" off tank brought because our threat generation isn't high enough to compete with the big boy tanks.
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Re: Build 12857 (31.8.10)

Postby mclem » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:00 am

I'm wondering if that extra Holy Power on certain effects in PoJ is enough to tip it over into the 'situationally want' category for me. I like the talent as it was but it wasn't quite good enough. Giving us a little extra HP to deal with situations where we're incapacitated (Blood Sap being my latest annoyance, but fears are ones which seem most likely to be relevant in boss contexts) might just make me take the plunge with those talent points.

Also: Cooldown removed on exorcism? That's pretty huge for us regarding pickups, unless I'm missing something.
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