Exorcism

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Re: Exorcism

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:34 pm

Like Darielle alluded to, I think we need a random Holy Power generator of some sort like Ret has. It doesn't have to be "various attacks proc extra HoPo" in the same way, and in fact it doesn't even have to necessarily be random. Holy's Healing Beacon target = more HoPo talent is a quite good strategic tradeoff choice that also works to remove HoPo generation monotony. Prot needs something like that.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Darielle » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:42 pm

Reckoning: 2 additional melee hits that generate Holy Power or some sort, is something I could get behind.

Course, Reckoning is already pretty damn powerful right now. But it's entirely passive. Which is bleh. Something like this with a passive and active component appeals to me.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Chicken » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:44 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Like Darielle alluded to, I think we need a random Holy Power generator of some sort like Ret has. It doesn't have to be "various attacks proc extra HoPo" in the same way, and in fact it doesn't even have to necessarily be random. Holy's Healing Beacon target = more HoPo talent is a quite good strategic tradeoff choice that also works to remove HoPo generation monotony. Prot needs something like that.
Going to go make my usual HoPo suggestion here and suggest they turn Sacred Duty into a clearcasting for Holy Power buff, that is it'll allow you to use any abilities that use HoPo with the strength of the amount of HoPo you have now without consuming the HoPo. Shorten the duration of the buff it gives to 6 seconds and you won't be saving it for 3 HoPo all the time, and it'd give us a little bit more freedom to use Word of Glory without worrying about Holy Shield dropping off.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arincia » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:19 pm

The problem is they have backed them selves into a corner where they can't really tune the numbers on CDs.
Judgment has to be 8 seconds or else ret will complain if prot gets it more often.
CS/HoR has to be 4.5 seconds with ret getting haste to reduce its cooldown and prot no option.
SoR has no cool down but you only want to use that at 3 hp which is once every 15 seconds.
AS is a 15 sec cooldown so it can be used once per 15 seconds.
@20% proc rate you only have a 48.8% chance to have it reset by the 3rd CS/HoR. That's basically the same as not having it reset for half the time. If it does proc though all you did was move AS spot in a rotation

CS-J-X1-CS-Y-X2-CS-SOR-X3

It basically just fills a X1,X2,X3 spot and gets moved around in those spots. That still leaves a filler desired on Y and another potential filler for the other X's not filled. If HW glyph goes live with beta we're using HW all the time which worse aoe situation in a single target rotation then currently (with 40% of GCD filled with aoe and with HoTR it becomes 70% aoe threat).

So with the only options we are facing are bad choices.
Option 1. AS timer goes down to a divisible by 3 time but gets even more damage cut from it.
Option 2. HW glyph reduces it to no cooldown. This sucks cause now were still the aoe kings which we don't want.
Option 3. Another current ability is introduced. HoW/Exo are currently available abilities to choose from and thus why we are talking about them.

Again if they wanted to make it so we had to manage our rotation by being able to adjust X1,X2,X3 position with AS proc while maintaining the base rotation it would allow skill to show and still allow the procs to be meaningful. However to do that we need a choice for those positions. A 6 second single target ability happens to fill both the Y and X3 position very well with a 15 second HW. You would have to be able to adjust the rotation on the fly if you had AS proc in X3 to use. At that point if you use exo instantly your whole rotation falls apart so you have to create a artificial gaps until exo could be re put back into X3. Meanwhile HW and AS keep shifting places in the rotation. Example:

Base:

CS-J-As-Exo-HW-CS-SOR-Exo

But you get a proc so it goes:

CS-J-AS-CS-Exo-HW-CS-SoR-AS
CS-J-X-CS-Exo-HW-CS-SoR-AS (1 artificial gap)
or
CS-J-X-CS-Exo-X-CS-SoR-AS (2 artificial gap to shit HW as well)

If it proced at HW it then has to shift:

CS-J-AS-CS-Exo-AS-CS-SoR-Exo
CS-J-X-CS-Exo-AS-CS-SoR-Exo/HW

As you can see it still creates gaps but the rotation would always be changing and fluid. This will probably end up being done with HoW if it goes live anyways sence it simplifies us.

This also allows us to keep a distinction from other tanks. Its let us have a niche of the ranged tank. DKs get cooldowns/self healing, Warriors get mobility/self healing, Bears get massive health/armor, we would be the ranged tank then. (AS/exo/J/taunts)

Anyways the way i see a free HP use ability proc is it becomes a problem for balancing. We either get balanced its procing and used for SoR for more threat or WoG for more healing. Its the same issue as inq and HS we had a while ago.

Proccing additional HP would be a interesting solution though I'm not really sure that's a good fix. If we went with a 30% chance on CS (not touching HoR if it includes additional targets) that means 51% the time we use SoR after the 2nd CS. It makes things feel even more out of place though it does mean we should see 2 dead GCD in a row a lot less often.
W/o AS current beta is:
CS-J-X-CS-HW-Con-CS-SoR-X-CS-J-X-CS-HW-X-CS-Sor-Repeat
(note i purposely left a gap after SoR to make it a 15 second repeatable scenario)

If we truly spammed on FCFS w/o AS: (assuming 15 second HW)
CS-J-X1-CS-Conc-HW-CS-J-SoR-CS-X2-X3-CS-J-HW-CS-SoR-X4-repeat

This would mean we would only have 4 dead GCD every 30 seconds without even taking into account AS. (8/40 or 20% down time)AS at worst would be used in X1 and X2. The odds of it not shifting out of those positions in this FCFS set up is 26% for a 30 second cycle.

Hmm interesting but the minute i just treat it as a shifting 15 second cool down filler and leave it out in a FCFS the rotation isn't that bad. The CD clash would easy resolve then if AS is only used in X1-X4 only. That leaves everything else clash free. CS>SoR(3HP)>J>Conc>HW>AS in X1-X4 positions. (note you can change conc with X1s position). So if we treat it as a shifting gap filler instead of a must have spammed every time ability then it fits in a lot nicer. The only debate would be having X1 or conc shift positions. At worst case AS didn't shift we use it twice at best we use it 3 times (despite swapping positions with X1). If we went with 5 AS per minute that leaves us with only 3 dead GCD for 37/40 or 92.5% filled. So actually its not as bad as we may have thought. At worst it only gets used 2 or 3 times which still isn't bad (34/40 gcd filled being worst case).
The main thing is we would have to view AS a gap filler with a proc then it breaks down fairly easily as a CD clash in FCFS.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arianne » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:50 pm

Darielle wrote:Actually, let me rephrase that. If the end result is another repeating cycle that uses every gcd with next to no variation between cycles, what they've tried failed and they ended up back to the start.


If we end up with a priority list, then all we are is bad warriors (because we have the same system as them with more things to think about and less mobility).

If we end up with a priority list that has empty GCDs everywhere, then we're just terrible warriors (because they can use their GCDs on shouts to generate more rage to be able to use more abilities).
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Re: Exorcism

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:56 pm

Arianne wrote:If we end up with a priority list, then all we are is bad warriors (because we have the same system as them with more things to think about and less mobility).

If we end up with a priority list that has empty GCDs everywhere, then we're just terrible warriors (because they can use their GCDs on shouts to generate more rage to be able to use more abilities).


That doesn't make sense. 969 is a priority list. The beta implementation is a priority list. Pretty much any rotation can be boiled down to a priority queue. If we don't end up with a priority list, that means we're either casting only one spell or none at all.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arincia » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:40 pm

The problem with grand crusader is its not useful. Were better of forcing a 15 second sections into the rotation and never deviating from it with grand crusader procs.

If we filled in everything but AS we end up with:

CS-J-X1-CS-HW-ConC-CS-J-SoR-X2-CS-X3-J-CS-HW-X4-CS-J-SoR-X5-CS-X6-J-CS-HW-ConC-CS-J-SoR-X7-CS-X8-J-CS-HW-X9-CS-X10-SoR-X11

11 gaps. It's easiest to stick AS in positions X2,X5,X7,X11 and to ignoring procs for a rotation. The way grand crusader is that it makes AS a shifting gap filler. Looking at worst case scenario it shifts into a position but we can only use it 1 time after because the other static abilities can't be used. It turns really wonky when you put AS in a spot other then X2,5,7,11. You end up with to much variation in the rotation with the proc to really want to use it. The fact i have to remove a abilities at certain times and ignore procs to simplify it means that we need something else other then grand crusader being a proc to try and provide a gap filler. If As is a static 15 seconds great we only have 7 gaps with no double gaps in a row. If we get a 6 second filler then even better as we still get only 1 gap. AS would have to be worth more then 25% of our total threat to consider not ignoring its proc. At 1/3 our total threat (worst case of it with everything else set in stone) we still end up break even with worst case of 3 per minute. That's just silly to make us want to use a proc.

That right there is the argument against the current grand crusader design. Its attempting to make our "signature" move into a gap filler but fails to do so. If exo was instant cast and Grand Crusader had CS/HoR proc it off cooldown that would be a better design.(or even proc instant cast on it) Our threat wouldn't fluctuate as much and rotation still would have some gaps in it unless Grand Crusader proced for a lucky streak.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby PsiVen » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:00 pm

I agree, the current Grand Crusader isn't very useful and in fact I don't miss skipping it. I just want one ability with no cooldown (or another very short one) that we can fill gaps with, even if it doesn't do much. Instant exorcism could do that, if we push off AS as a frequently-used ability that Blizzard seems to want for us at the moment.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arincia » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:20 pm

instant cast exorcism would be nice but even if they don't give us that we'll end up in a similar situation once HoW actives. If everything has a cooldown we arrange it nice repeatable patterns and then macro sequence it and ignore procs. If they want us to not macro sequence we need a meaningful proc and something on a low enough cool down to fill in the gaps created by using the proc. This is essentially the FCFS method. The current problem with no gap filler is it's better to force a rotation then FCFS and resolve CD clashes.

The developers seem intent on just giving us this mess and say here work with it. It's horrible to resolve anything on it. The fact that once we considered adding in HoW showed us we could get something simple and workable just goes to show that something needs to change. Changing cooldowns isn't the simplest answer. If they did we would have to have change 2 or 3 abilities on cooldowns to work. Meanwhile we have this perfectly usable spell to simplify our problem not being used and its ignored.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Abnir » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:57 pm

I keep thinking if Blizzard wants Avenger's Shield to really stand out as our "go to" ability and they want to make Grand Crusader worth the points, they'd have AS generate at least one point of holy power. This would help us at the start of pulls, and also seems like it could potentially take care of a lot of the player concerns about prot's static generation of holy power in comparison to Ret. While I'm indulging in wishful thinking I'd like to see it off the global cooldown, particularly if it's going to be our only true option for an interrupt. I imagine in PvP there would be complaints about the burst of AS plus 3 HP shield to the face, but I can dream.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Darielle » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:01 pm

The problem is they have backed them selves into a corner where they can't really tune the numbers on CDs.
Judgment has to be 8 seconds or else ret will complain if prot gets it more often.
CS/HoR has to be 4.5 seconds with ret getting haste to reduce its cooldown and prot no option.
SoR has no cool down but you only want to use that at 3 hp which is once every 15 seconds.
AS is a 15 sec cooldown so it can be used once per 15 seconds.
@20% proc rate you only have a 48.8% chance to have it reset by the 3rd CS/HoR. That's basically the same as not having it reset for half the time. If it does proc though all you did was move AS spot in a rotation


How is any of that list "backed into a corner and can't really tune the numbers on CD's"?
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arianne » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:05 pm

theckhd wrote:That doesn't make sense. 969 is a priority list. The beta implementation is a priority list. Pretty much any rotation can be boiled down to a priority queue. If we don't end up with a priority list, that means we're either casting only one spell or none at all.


A priority list is something like X > Y > Z. It's an easy decision tree. If button 1 is lit up, you hit it. If it's not, then hit button 2. If that's not then spam button Z.

If 969 were a priority list, then we'd hit ShoR > HotR > Cons > Judge. We don't, therefore 969 is not a priority list. If I want to hit a Hand, then I put it in a specific slot in my rotation (unless it's super important ASAP), I don't just hit it - that makes me plan in advance where I'm going to put stuff.

What I object to about a priority list is that it's boring. There's nothing to think about in advance. I know people argue that 969 is like that, but I think it's a step above a priority list.


Darielle wrote:
The problem is they have backed them selves into a corner where they can't really tune the numbers on CDs.
Judgment has to be 8 seconds or else ret will complain if prot gets it more often.
CS/HoR has to be 4.5 seconds with ret getting haste to reduce its cooldown and prot no option.
SoR has no cool down but you only want to use that at 3 hp which is once every 15 seconds.
AS is a 15 sec cooldown so it can be used once per 15 seconds.
@20% proc rate you only have a 48.8% chance to have it reset by the 3rd CS/HoR. That's basically the same as not having it reset for half the time. If it does proc though all you did was move AS spot in a rotation


How is any of that list "backed into a corner and can't really tune the numbers on CD's"?


Because if they change any of those then they're going to have to change the Ret rotation too. What else are they going to change?
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Re: Exorcism

Postby PingZing » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:16 pm

Arianne wrote:Because if they change any of those then they're going to have to change the Ret rotation too. What else are they going to change?


They could very easily just add Prot-specific talents to modify ability cooldowns. Not the prettiest of solutions, but it'd be functional.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arincia » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:10 pm

Fine ill rephrase it better.
-Judgment is tuned to be the same for ret and prot paladin. They made the mechanic for it give 50% base mana over 10 seconds with a 8 second cool down. The reason they got rid of the judgment cool down reducing talents in the ret tree was to make judgment more consistent and thus mana regen consistent so both specs could be balanced properly without worrying about proper mana management in a normal rotation.
-CS and HoR were adjusted to a shared 4.5 seconds so that there wasn't a CD clash and we would use CS for single target threat over HoR. It used to be 1/2 a second short or 1 second to long to fit in another ability. Blizzard opted to extend both durations to 4.5 seconds and let ret reduce the cool down by scaling with haste. This fixed Holy power generation at a constant rate for prot and allowed ret to get CS more often then prot.
-SoR has no cool down on it but scales such that players would not want to use it without 3 stacks of holy power. This means it is effectively tied to a 13/13.5/15 second cool down based on HP generation from CS.
-Avengers shield is a 15 second cool down. It used to be a lot higher but when they lowered the cool down from 24 seconds to 15 (37.5% cool down reduction) they also reduced its damage by the same amount (7k to 4.3k so 37.5%). There is also a blue post stating that if they make the proc any better/cool down lower on it they consequently have to also reduce the damage. This means any shorter cool down also reduces its significance as threat ability from the damage component. It is effectively a 15 second cool down though as you only have a 20/36%chance to have a proc before it would hit it has reached its cool down again. Even if we get a proc and use it there is still a 15 second cool down. So realistically we're just using it sooner and shifting its place in our rotation constantly.

SO in review they have set us up with a mixed bag of messages. They want SoR to be the HP "dump" for us but its effectively only a 12-15 sec cool down due to CS/HoR HP generation. AS is only a effective 15 second shifting cool down. Judgment could only be used once in a 15 second rotation or 3 times a 30 second rotation. With just those abilities we look at only 13/20 GCD per 20 seconds. If we use Conc and HW its still only 16/20 seconds. But that means we are literally having 5/16 or 31% of our ability in a single target rotation be aoe. Compared to live with HoR and Conc were 1.5/6 (42%) of our abilities are aoe its not much of a change. Heck without HW and Conc we are looking at a 7/20 dead time or 35% dead time. 1/3 the time your doing nothing. That's just stupid and we may as well have scripts playing for us with that much passive play.20 or 25% sure that's probably fine as a cap but 35% is just to much. And when we do fill it not we're back to using more aoe again. And Blizzard fine with this after stating they want everyone to use less aoe? 31% as aoe just to fill gaps? If HW has no CD with the glyph to be spammed it's even worse and counters the stated intent.

But yes lets see what could they do to change the numbers.
AS? can go down so does its damage/threat. So not optimal but but a option.
Judgment? Hard to because they need prot and ret on reliable mana regen so they can do basic functions without mana constraints. 8 second cool down works out to well to touch it for ret and prot shouldn't need to use it any more often without making it even weaker. Possible but highly unlikely.
CS/HoR? They already adjusted to 4.5 seconds and i don't see it getting lowered at all. Possible but unlikely.
SoR? No cooldown but without 3 HP its not worth using unless you need it up at the start of a fight.

That's it. Again, How are they going to adjust the numbers? With AS we live on a 15 second heartbeat. IF it gets lowered we live on SoR 12-15 second heartbeat. To lower that we have to lower CS/HoR. So they in essence would have to adjust at least 2 of our 3 main ability cool downs.

As a easier solution they can prop up exorcism as a ability to smooth out what they have in mind. They can do multiple things with it to make it work and its less work then mashing 4 cool downs together and make it work. It can't fill every gap but it sure as heck lets us feel more involved in our threat production to not be passive play. Heck it would replace HW+conc in a 30 second duration so now we have only 2/16 of threat as aoe. Now that's a single target rotation.

As a practice try and see if you can make the number work out with those 4 abilities?
So that AS should be able to be use often, we use SoR after 3 CS/HoR, and judgment is used on cool down almost all the time. You must also now keep in gaps.
Keep in mind they probably are going to be in divisibility by 3 or 1.5 to fit into a rotation fine.
The cleanest answer is probably this:
CS-J-AS-CS-X-J-CS-SoR-X.
This means Judgment is effectively a 6 second cool down. AS could stay the same but then 12 second cool down works better. Can't always fit in Holy wrath or conc. Heck even without a Grand crusader proc it leave us with 7/9 GCD filled. 77.8% time that's not passive play or 22.2% that is passive play. Now the proc is meaningful and won't clash. Problem? Once you get to HoR range its 8/9 or 9/9 filled GCD with Grand Crusader procs. But considering it's when other dps ramp up there damage and its only usable at low health it shouldn't be a issue.

Do you think would blizzard even try to tune something like this? Blizzard has a huge history of band-aid fixing and nerfs/over buffing instead of dealing with the real issue. It's also easier at this point to have them consider a conceptual pass of exorcism as a partial gap filler then a number pass and leave us screwed. They won't listen to numbers until there done with the conceptual phase and by then its to late and they have made up their minds for numbers. I don't want a band aid/over buffer/nerf because they failed to make us playable with our "rotation".
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Marblehead » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:07 am

Grand Crusader
When your Crusader Strike or Hammer of the Righteous deal damage, they have a 20/40% chance of refreshing the cooldown on Avenger's Shield. Also, when your Judgement deals damage, it has a 50/100% chance to generate Holy Power.


There. I fixed tankadins :shock:
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