Exorcism

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Re: Exorcism

Postby steadypal » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:44 pm

Sonic wrote:
Darielle wrote:There's no real need or point for more ranged abilities for us.

I mean, you could ask "Why not" but you need a "Why" first.



Why? Because right now we still have major gaps in our rotation. And even if that stays Exo would be better for single target instead of Holy Wrath which eats a large chunk of mana.


^


it would fit so perfectly into our rotation, 6 sec CD exo,, much better than blizz saying they want holy wrath to be our filler ability, 6 seconds would go a long way filling all the gaps in our rotation
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Re: Exorcism

Postby PingZing » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:46 pm

Sonic wrote:Why? Because right now we still have major gaps in our rotation. And even if that stays Exo would be better for single target instead of Holy Wrath which eats a large chunk of mana.


In that case, why a ranged ability? I'm being nitpicky here, but it's a valid point, I think. We've always had fairly powerful ranged threat compared to the other classes, though DKs do as well. I think some people are combining "Our rotation is empty!" with "We need another ranged ability while tanking!"

And for what it's worth mana is literally a non-issue on beta right now. I can spam both Holy Wrath and Consecration on cooldown and never run into mana problems. Judgements of the Wise is very, very powerful.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arincia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:07 pm

Well it could be modified easy enough same for HoW. Like i said 2 6 second abilities or 1 4.5 second ability fit our rotation and fix it out very nice for us.

But here's the hugest arguement for a gap filler.
We have 10 GCD in 15 seconds
We fill 3 with CS/HoR
We fill 1 with SoR
Judgment can fill one.
AS can be used once per rotation as well.
Holy wrath can be used once per rotation as well

That give's us only 7/10 GCD filled
With HoW active its 8/10 during that time
But if we can get exorcism instant cast it means we go from 30% no GCD abilities to 20%
20% is fine because it means we never get 2 dead GCD in a row. But the current set up has 1 dead GCD CS then 2 dead GCD before the next CS. That is far to long of a dead time imo to be acceptable.

Exorcism is a single target vrs holy wrath which also helps go in line with a true single target rotation. Id also point out that both ret and holy get it as instant cast via talent. I'm not saying its not fair but its does leave us filling lacking and helps fill a much needed hole atm.

It could be as simple as this:
Grand Crusader reduce cast time on exorcism by .75 sec per talent (1.5s total) and reduce its damage by 1/6 per talent (2/3 damage) and its range by 10 yard per talent (10 yard range then?). In addition you have a 50/100% chance when you critical with any ability you reset the cool down on exorcism.

This provides a lot more variety in a rotation without causing a huge CD clash at points. It also fits into a rotation very well in that state.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Flex » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:30 pm

Gaps in the rotation are by design.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby pyrrhician » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:33 pm

On the subject of exorcism, what if they don't make it instant. What if we cast it in between boss swings, the way we used to sometimes in bc? Are cata boss swing timers pretty consistent? Would it be viable? If so, could it fill the gaps that are currently in our rotation?
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arincia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:37 pm

I'm not trying to say that gaps are inherently bad in a design but that you have to consider the 2 extreme view points of this argument. The first is that were GCD capped to the point we can't do anything. Now yes 969 rotation GCD capped but its flexible with using other abilities and keeps functioning. However the developers feel this is bad being GCD "locked" (among other reasons) and want to create gaps from our current 969 rotation.

Now we have to consider the other extreme end of this argument. What if we have to many GCDs with nothing to do? This raises the question of how much of a gap is to much? There's functionality with keeping the gaps but that can be adjusted with threat/damage modifiers. But the other part to consider also is player retention with gaps. Like has been point out going 1 dead gcd to a ability to 2 dead GCD isn't much to keep a player playing said spec or rotation due to lack of attention needed (in our current wotlk mind set). I think most people could be fine with gaps as long as it isn't said scenario of 3/4 gcd with nothing to do in a repetitive brief time period (15 seconds). In that respect having just one ability we can use to break up that 2 gcd in a row goes a long way to feeling more interactive with the rotation. It still leaves plenty of holes.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the gaps but the current beta iteration would make us feel like playing wack a mole or do a very deep complex rotation with little to no room for err. (so macro sequence most likely).
with 7/10 of our GCD time many people will uninvolved with the rotation especially with no clear cut answer that can be simplified for it. If it was 8/10 that makes things a bit more fluid and provides a clearer way to interact with a rotation. It could still be tough but the complexity level drops a lot from doing meta game rotation on the fly.

Example
CS-J-AS-CS-Exo-X-CS-X-SoR

Vrs

CS-J-AS-CS-X-X-CS-X-SoR

(fill in X as needed)

Also in light of this blizzard is also creating some double standards on this GCD gaps but that's a entirely different subject (though relevant to this discussion)

Short version its not a bad design but that philosophy is going to extreme to keep the retention of a paladin tanks that many long time tanking members are planning to leave the class/spec due to too much GCD dead time in the current possible beta rotation. Also its only a very small request that isn't that hard to implement (instant cast exo) and easy to balance if needed (dmg or range adjustment).
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Sonic » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:21 am

PingZing wrote:
Sonic wrote:Why? Because right now we still have major gaps in our rotation. And even if that stays Exo would be better for single target instead of Holy Wrath which eats a large chunk of mana.


In that case, why a ranged ability? I'm being nitpicky here, but it's a valid point, I think. We've always had fairly powerful ranged threat compared to the other classes, though DKs do as well. I think some people are combining "Our rotation is empty!" with "We need another ranged ability while tanking!"

And for what it's worth mana is literally a non-issue on beta right now. I can spam both Holy Wrath and Consecration on cooldown and never run into mana problems. Judgements of the Wise is very, very powerful.



Don't think of it as a ranged ability then. It needs to be on a melee based proc like Art of War for Ret. I'm not of the mind we need more ranged damage, I'd prefer a range closer personally, but it's also about getting unused skills back in the game. Look at what they did for holy wrath.

It was pointless to use other than in ICC trash, maybe some Naxx. It was a weak gap filler for Ret facerolling on bosses and was pushed even less if you had 2pT10. Now it's become universal use. Why leave Exo out of the equation excpet for Ret?

Judgments of the wise is overpowered on beta. I dunno if it's because our skills are under cost at the moment or the buff is just waaay to strong. Either way I'd assume it will get toned down a little once they have all our stuff figured out.

There's nothing wrong with some gap time. Provided our threat doesn't suffer cause of it. I don't mind having a breather, I just don't want to be turned into a half ass rogue with a high max energy bar.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Darielle » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:03 am

Sonic wrote:
Darielle wrote:There's no real need or point for more ranged abilities for us.

I mean, you could ask "Why not" but you need a "Why" first.



Why? Because right now we still have major gaps in our rotation. And even if that stays Exo would be better for single target instead of Holy Wrath which eats a large chunk of mana.


We already have a wide range of rotational spells however. If the gaps prove "too much", the cooldowns and patterns of THOSE abilities can and probably should be altered instead of making a ranged spell instant cast to fit the mold. Cluttering up a rotation with more and more abilities is slightly silly and adds unnecessary buttons to keybind.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Gideon » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:32 am

We have the ranged abilities we have because we don't have warrior mobility. Or at least that was my perception when they had charge etc. and we had the only ranged taunt. On this principle alone, another ranged ability would be np. On the other hand, I'd prefer to avoid becoming an elemental shaman in plate if that's ok.

Empty GCDs may be working as intended but I question that intention. Warriors will still gloat that their rotation takes more skill (meh) and is more active (correct). Paladins will still complain that they're not involved enough. Abilities like Consecration will still be used on single targets as there are free GCDs and no reason at all not to fill them with whatever. HoW will become rotational when the boss is low because there are no alternatives.

HoW is apparently too powerful to be made rotational. Easily fixed, any talent/proc that allowed HoW above 20%HP would just have to reduce the damage when used outside of its normal conditions. Darielle is right though, beta ret paladin and prot warrior work because they have a small group of core abilities on a tight rotation with an additional mechanism to inject variation.

Alternatives to empty GCDs:
* Filler spell - Like devastate for warriors (there are examples in many classes).
* Very large number of rotational spells - I can't think of any examples right now.
* Interlocking short cooldowns - 969
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arianne » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:19 am

If they make us have a spammable filler spell, then how are we different from warriors?
If they make us have interlocking short cooldown abilities, then how is that different from the current 969?

The only solution I can see is to make us have a lot of moderate cooldown abilities that have to be planned out roughly in advance and then if you mess up there's a consequence for messing it up (which is what they've been trying to do). Of course, the problem that this leads to is that you will probably have a mod like clcret to tell you what to do while you pay attention to the actual boss fight.

In my opinion, having more than one GCD free in every 15s is too much empty GCD space. I'd prefer none.

Having nothing to hit in between CS/HotR strikes is too much empty GCD space (even if you get to fill it every once in awhile with AS).

If we become warriors with a spammable filler spell, then I'll probably quit.

I also agree with Darielle that having too many abilities in the rotation is a problem. I have essentially 10 hotkeys in my setup that are pretty easy to hit regularly. HoR and HoJ take up two of those. AS, HotR, CS, cons, judgement, ShoR, HoW and HW take up the other 8. I do hands, cleanse, healing, and RD via clique/vuhdo. If we end up with any more buttons than currently then I'll have to start macro'ing funny buttons (though likely I'll do a CS/HotR macro and get rid of my shift ability bar since I never hotkey that bar anyway).
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Re: Exorcism

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:31 am

So basically, you don't like the beta implementation, and you don't want a filler spell. Which leaves going back to a 969-like rotation.

I think if your bar for "too similar to warriors" is "spammable filler spell," you're setting that bar too low. There are lots of similarities between us and warriors already, but there are also lots of differences. Even if our rotation was exactly like warriors, there would still be enough mechanics differences to be distinct.

And giving us a filler spell won't automatically do that. We'd still be using it a lot less than a warrior uses Devastate. It would just fill in the few remaining empty GCDs floating around. You might use it on average once every 6-8 seconds, compared to a Warrior's once every 2-3 seconds.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Darielle » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:39 am

Arianne wrote:If they make us have a spammable filler spell, then how are we different from warriors?

Because we play differently. Affliction and Shadow both have dots and a filler, and are different. Every class has "hit buttons", "buffs", "Debuffs" and "procs", but they play differently.

In our case, we don't have rage dumps, low rage/high rage situations, a block/dodge/parry procced attack, etc. All you'd be complaining about is "hey look I push this button when there's nothing else to do and there's no reason to save the gcd". That's hardly a warrior specific concept, and sounds more like looking for a reason to complain. Hell, there are already similarities and there are going to be similarities, what with the whole shield theme and all, but you can say that about any two classes - the differences are what make the classes different, and we have that. If having a filler that occupies those 2 more gcd's is what pushes the edge of makes the classes too "similar", *shrug*. Your opinion, but I don't see logic.

Realistically though there's nothing different from a spammable filler and a 3 sec cooldown filler that both filler. And your complaint seems to be more about their design itself. Which is fine, but I'm not sure why you expect or want Paladins to stay in the same combat playstyle they're in now. "It gives me time to look around" isn't really much of a reason, since all classes no matter how complex do that anyway.

If they make us have interlocking short cooldown abilities, then how is that different from the current 969?


Because as long as it's interlocking short cooldown abilities with variations based on combat flow and procs, it does the job of giving something to watch for in combat and bring out "skill".

I also agree with Darielle that having too many abilities in the rotation is a problem. I have essentially 10 hotkeys in my setup that are pretty easy to hit regularly. HoR and HoJ take up two of those. AS, HotR, CS, cons, judgement, ShoR, HoW and HW take up the other 8. I do hands, cleanse, healing, and RD via clique/vuhdo. If we end up with any more buttons than currently then I'll have to start macro'ing funny buttons (though likely I'll do a CS/HotR macro and get rid of my shift ability bar since I never hotkey that bar anyway).


Oh as much as I likve agreement (^.^), I didn't say that. I just said it was "slightly silly" to drag buttons in for no good reason when the buttons that exist can do the job with a couple of cooldown and proc rate tweeks if that was the only problem.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arincia » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:57 am

I suppose we should also wait to see if any glyph changes any of our spells (like reducing Holy Wraths cooldown). But i also fail to see adding one more ability would make our rotation possibly more complex.

CS-X-X-CS-X-X-CS-X-SoR-repeat

CS-J-AS-CS-X-X-CS-X-SoR-repeat

If we had Exo/HoW active it then becomes:

CS-J-AS-CS-Exo-X-CS-SoR-Exo-repeat

Now we just fill in X with Holy wrath or AS procs and your set. The problem with this though is you have to use exo right after the 2nd cs and fit it in just after SoR or the whole thing falls apart in your face for the next 15 seconds when you can fix it then. Alternatively you can push SoR back to fit in a AS proc as well but then have to substitute in Holy wrath till it comes back up. Essentially we end up with a short list that has 3 variations:
CS-J-X1-CS-Exo-X2-CS-SoR-X3

This means we get 7 set abilities on a timer but we have to watch how we fill the other 3 remaining ones to not mess up the initial rotation. That would mean we get 3 fillers to use: Exo at X3, AS X1,X2,X3 and Holy wrath in X1,X2,X3. This means that some skill is involved in filling in those gaps.

If we ignore AS procs then its easy to fill:

CS-J-AS-CS-Exo-HW-CS-SoR-Exo

CS,J,Exo,SoR,AS,HW so 6 abilities thats just 1 more then currently on live. Keeping in mind that Holy wrath is optional it means its not any worse then today needing 5 abilities. Looking at how the rotation is much stabler to work around with no Grand Crusader procs it might just be better to ask for it to provide HoW/Exo instant cast instead. Though i feel this instead points out the main problem of AS procs or procs in general. Again if nothing else when HoW is active we would just do that above rotation substituting in HoW for Exo.

In the interest of glyphs considering how our rotation is changing it is possible that we may not ending using our current ones. While we would be want to be using Glyph of vengence for 10 expertise our other glyphs are likely to change. Sense we wont have Divine plea up all the time unless its DR is increased we may swap it out and the 3rd glyph which was always situational. It may be possible that they make a glyph of exo that makes its instant cast but 20% less damage(or something to balance it). Point is until we can see the glyph options with our talent tree we only have talents to work with for making a rotation. Grand Crusader as a proc in the current build doing more harm then good. Procs are good when it creates meaningful choices not when there suppose to be fillers. If its meant to be a filler allowing Exo/HoW as a filler does a much better job (as shown) then a proc could on average.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Noradin » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:00 pm

I'd rather they remove the CD instead (but move the CD to the ret proc).
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Darielle » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:22 pm

If we ignore AS procs then its easy to fill:

CS-J-AS-CS-Exo-HW-CS-SoR-Exo

CS,J,Exo,SoR,AS,HW so 6 abilities thats just 1 more then currently on live. Keeping in mind that Holy wrath is optional it means its not any worse then today needing 5 abilities. Looking at how the rotation is much stabler to work around with no Grand Crusader procs it might just be better to ask for it to provide HoW/Exo instant cast instead. Though i feel this instead points out the main problem of AS procs or procs in general. Again if nothing else when HoW is active we would just do that above rotation substituting in HoW for Exo.


The problem with that is while being "much stabler" that's not what they're going for. A slightly funkier or more complex version of a rotation isn't the intended effect.

Grand Crusader itself as a proc is simply meant to make you think and trade abilities around for potentially higher damage as a reward for awareness. Right now the Beta is simply a show of intent for the most part; the actual details aren't done.

Now, if the required changes to get things lined up is to lower the cooldowns of some abilities (e.g. 6 sec Judgments, 12 sec AS's etc.), vary up Holy Power generation to make ShoR usable more often (e.g. chance or guaranteed on ability/melee hit/trigger to generate Holy Power) and compact the "cycle", and/or make Grand Crusader more frequent, more meaningful(hit harder) etc. to the point that when it procs, we more or less use it NOW unless encounter/gcd needs demand we don't,
or all of the above, then that's what it takes. The numbers in the end for each ability will be adjusted accordingly in the numbers pass anyway.

Now, you COULD add Exorcism to the pile. But there's no real reason to. Unless they for some reason can't make it work acceptably without adding Exorcism as instant cast, I don't see them doing it. Our ranged arsenal is strong enough, so there's no reason on that front, and our ability tookit is varied enough, so there's no reason to add more spells unless they need to.

Really, the biggest debates in this whole "rotation" thing are things like how many gcd's being empty is acceptable and so on. Realistically though, it's unlikely that we'll end up simply going to a X-Y-Z cycle, or a X-A-C-X-F-G-X-C-G cycle or Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right--B-A-Select-Start or any kind of predictable cycle of that sort, especially one that uses or "locks" every gcd.
Actually, let me rephrase that. If the end result is another repeating cycle that uses every gcd with next to no variation between cycles, what they've tried failed and they ended up back to the start.
Last edited by Darielle on Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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