Guys don't worry

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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Tantrim » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:35 am

Koatanga wrote:Shadow Labs and its Heroic counterpart were pretty famous for the need for CC. In particular, the double-shadow-priest pull in the ogre room. They were just nasty.

Magister's Terrace was another good one for CC.

Note this is before everyone got geared to the teeth and the days of AoE fest began. This is also the days when Paladin tanks were rare - warriors and bears did the real tanking.

Warriors and bears had very few AoE abilities, so it was very important to maintain CC and target wisely.

Once people clued in to how OP paladins were in 5-mans, we were THE choice for instancing. Still lagged way behind in raiding, but for instances we rocked.

Not allways sure people played the same wow i did

Magisters terrace was when pala were well known for their aoe tanking.. it also didnt really matter in mgt.. thats the wow i remember
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Pizbit » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:05 am

Tantrim wrote:Not allways sure people played the same wow i did

Magisters terrace was when pala were well known for their aoe tanking.. it also didnt really matter in mgt.. thats the wow i remember


"Shattered Halls"
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Archeth » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:33 am

Shattered Halls was the place where I "missed" my paladin tank friend the most, because there are lots of big trash packs, streaming adds to be picked up, and generally few mobs who are dangerous enough to require CC or focus firing despite of a paladin. Unlike the examples of MgT or SL.

Koatanga wrote:Personally, I think they have got it wrong with the whole AoE thing. There's no real need for strong AoE damage in any encounter. People just use it to pad the damage meters on trash.

All you need to do to limit the use of AoE and have people think about targeting is to nerf the hell out of AoE. If it is only a DPS increase when used on 5 or more targets, then people will not use AoE on smaller pulls. It's that simple. They will pad the meter better with single-target on smaller pulls, so they will use single-target DPS.

And if they still want the flavour of people being attacked by an army of murlocs, they can still do it, and people would dust off their AoE spells and have a fun time blowing stuff up.

Instead they gave pretty much everyone a potent AoE that is getting even more potent with Cata, then they say they don't want people using AoE all the time, and then they nerf AoE tanking abilities. Seems silly to me.

Yes, I'm sorry some people love to use their AoE spells more than just once in a blue moon, clearly we can't have that. They're actually nerfing all AoE, not just tanking mechanics. Sure "AoE 90% of all pulls in instances" isn't exciting but neither is the other extreme, with this hypothetical way of "single target 90% of all pulls, bosses and solo mobs, bring out AoE once every instance". Why do we need designers or killjoys like you to tell us what's fun and what not? Although they seem to be going for a "balanced" approach. Nerf AoE damage. Nerf AoE tanking to hell and back. Add a few scary mobs which you want to CC or burn. Done in moderation, I don't disagree with this - although especially the AoE tanking nerf goes a bit too far to me, and I would not want to wake up to a Cataclysm where my old mage theoretically has to keep something sheeped every 2nd pull.

But overall it's the only way to handle the "AoE fest" which makes sense, if one agrees that AoE in the current state is a problem (which I do not, but I'm not a WoW designer). WotLK changed more than just AoE tanking mechanics, they also spread AoE to a point where you could count on having 3 people in the group who did decent damage to all mobs at once. It also shipped with virtually no dangerous trash mobs which needed special care, and it didn't take long to make us run the same heroics tuned for people in level 187 blue gear in level 213+ raid gear. So not only did we have no incentive to be careful and use CC, we also had enough AoE DPS to kill a bunch of mobs faster and just as safely as if we had killed them one by one. Meanwhile tanks aren't in danger of dying because they have more mobs beating on them for longer, and most healers can keep up healing the tank for a while.

Which is very different from the TBC I do remember, where we usually CCed mobs in SL and MgT even with a paladin tank because the mobs were dangerous (like, did very spiky damage or healed the hell out of their allies), not because the tanks couldn't tank them all. I actually saw that again in a Shattered Halls run a while ago with a group that wasn't level 70 with just quest greens, while it was well possible to just AoE tank the gladiator packs, they still wiped us a few times because the tank took insane damage from these 5-6 mobs at once, so we changed to CCing one or two and burning the rest one by one. Same for the late part of SP or parts of SV - a regular group of people actually in the target audience for heroics (there was much less reason to run a heroic in TBC if you already had T5+ gear) couldn't burn a whole pack before fear- and MC-spammers started getting scary even if the tank could hold aggro on them all at first. When I had the rare pleasure of running heroics with a paladin tank (we had two in the guild and both quit in the months while WotLK beta was on) as a mage I had to sheep stuff far less often, but an AoE fest it was not, and MgT is a good example why. Heal-spamming mobs needed to be taken care of fast, and an encounter like Delrissa was especially harsh on the guys with no spammable CC. AoE and "no CC" was simply unrealistic because of mechanics, not because of AoE tanking mechanics. If you only ever ran with guildies in high end raid gear, YMMV.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby RedAces » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:34 am

hey,

Koatanga wrote:Personally, I think they have got it wrong with the whole AoE thing. There's no real need for strong AoE damage in any encounter. People just use it to pad the damage meters on trash.

All you need to do to limit the use of AoE and have people think about targeting is to nerf the hell out of AoE. If it is only a DPS increase when used on 5 or more targets, then people will not use AoE on smaller pulls. It's that simple. They will pad the meter better with single-target on smaller pulls, so they will use single-target DPS.


A poster in another Cataclysm thread said that all AoE-effect got nerfed by at least 50%, on live as a rogue you AoE @ 3+ Mobs ... so you'll need at least 6 mobs (+- 1) in order to gain dps bye AoEing... that's exactly what you said ;)

Bye, RedAces.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Arianne » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:43 pm

I did some runs in TBC on my priest with undergeared paladin tanks in SH that just tried to round up everything and AoE and it really didn't work. You had to reach a certain level of raid gear before you could round up everything and AoE it down - somewhere around SSC level (or Sunwell emblem epics).

The problem with WotLK is that they just didn't tune heroics hard enough to begin with. They should have been tuned for people with full Naxx gear, which then would have made people with blues or some epics CC various mobs. I went into heroics in my sunwell gear with defense gems in it and that shouldn't have been possible.

I remember going into heroics in BC with 1-2 cc, a healer, and an offhealer (ie: ele shaman, balance druid, shadow priest) because when you started heroics they were really that hard. You needed one healer to heal the tank and someone else who could heal the rest of the party if they took damage.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Chunes » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:20 pm

@ Ari: indeed.

Regarding tuning, WotlK heroics were well tuned towards a tank that was in T6 level gear and def-capped. Those runs felt about as hard as BC heroics felt when they were introduced. I remember running into UP with 4pc T6 and some quest blues all gemmed/enchanted to hit the defcap and just about getting my shit handed to me in the taxidermy room.

After about my 2nd naxx25 run, heroics turned into the snorefest they currently are for me.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Lieris » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:46 pm

Arianne wrote:I did some runs in TBC on my priest with undergeared paladin tanks in SH that just tried to round up everything and AoE and it really didn't work. You had to reach a certain level of raid gear before you could round up everything and AoE it down - somewhere around SSC level (or Sunwell emblem epics).


During 2.0, sure. Post 2.1 you could AOE tank heroic SH just fine with a mix of blues (good blues that is) and Karazhan epics. There were a lot of paladins back then that had no idea how to gear for tanking and would just wear anything with spell damage on it and would just get crit stomped whenever they tried to AOE tank.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Amanor » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:49 pm

You mean you could do heroics, which were tuned to be below raiding, more easily once you acquired raiding gear?

Shock.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Pizbit » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:21 pm

Arianne wrote:I did some runs in TBC on my priest with undergeared paladin tanks in SH that just tried to round up everything and AoE and it really didn't work. You had to reach a certain level of raid gear before you could round up everything and AoE it down - somewhere around SSC level (or Sunwell emblem epics).


Wha? I was aoeing that place down with blues, around 12k HP buffed or something I believe.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby majiben » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:36 pm

Amanor wrote:You mean you could do heroics, which were tuned to be below raiding, more easily once you acquired raiding gear?

Shock.

I wouldn't say that heroics in general were tuned below raids, especially in earlier TBC, nerfs and BoJ gear making a huge difference.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Arcand » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:38 pm

majiben wrote:I wouldn't say that heroics in general were tuned below raids, especially in earlier TBC...


Yep. Few if any raids have beat me up the way those first heroics did, and
I was a good boy and pushed my gear to pretty near the dungeon limit before
trying a heroic.

Attumen and Moroes were easy street compared to the final boss in Arcatraz
with his godawful Mind Flay.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Amanor » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:46 pm

majiben wrote:
Amanor wrote:You mean you could do heroics, which were tuned to be below raiding, more easily once you acquired raiding gear?

Shock.

I wouldn't say that heroics in general were tuned below raids, especially in earlier TBC, nerfs and BoJ gear making a huge difference.


They weren't tuned below them at first, as they were admittedly overtuned, hence the first round of nerfs that brought them more in line. Not that they still didn't kick a person's ass if they weren't on the ball, but part of that was also due to party composition vs. raid composition. It's easier to cover more bases with raid sizes than with heroics, where a mismatched healer, a DPS without CC, or a hybrid could make a normally trivial run more of a pain.

As to the overtuning, iirc, some of the raids were also purposefully overtuned so as to throttle players and give Blizzard time to churn out BT.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Invisusira » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:24 am

GUYS

DON'T WORRY



Cataclysm Beta - Build 12857 - Codename: we heard you like aoe so we put some aoe in your aoe so you can aoe while you aoe

Death Knight
Blood Boil now deals [ 8% of AP + 297 ] damage, up from [ 6% of AP + 223 ].

Druid
Hurricane base damage increased by 33%.
Starfall now has a 40 yards range, up from 30 yards. Base damage increased by 33%.
Swipe (Bear) base damage increased by 33%.
Swipe (Cat) now deals 215% weapon damage, up from 125%.

Mage
Flamestrike base damage increased by 33%.
Blizzard base damage increased by 33%.

Paladin
Consecration now scales from 22% of AP and 22% of Spell Power, down from 32%.
Vindication now has a chance to reduce physical damage done by the primary target of the skills. (Old - All targets)
Grand Crusader now only procs from damage dealt to your primary target.

Priest
Holy Nova base damage increased by 33%.
Sin and Punishment now affects enemy targets within 10 yards, up from 6 yards. Additional effect - When your Mind Flay critically hits, the cooldown of your Shadowfiend is reduced by 10/20 sec.

Rogue
Fan of Knives now deals 80% of weapon damage, up from 60%.

Shaman
Magma Totem base damage increased by 33%.
Fire Nova base damage increased by 33%.
Improved Fire Nova is now a Tier 4 Enhancement Talent - Increases the damage done by your Fire Nova by 10/20% and reduces the cooldown by 2/4 sec.

Warlock
Seed of Corruption base AE damage increased by 33%.
Hellfire base damage increased by 33%.
Rain of Fire base damage increased by 33%. Range increased from 30 yards to 35 yards.

Warrior
Sweeping Strikes now lasts 30 sec instead of lasting 5 attacks. Cooldown not changed yet.
Blood and Thunder is now a Tier 1 talent, down from Tier 2.

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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Levantine » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:29 am

I like the part where Paladin AoE gets nerfed at the same time everyone else's gets buffed, although I think that's probably because I remember reading somewhere that Consecrate was currently the strongest AoE spell in game.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:42 am

Levantine wrote:I like the part where Paladin AoE gets nerfed at the same time everyone else's gets buffed, although I think that's probably because I remember reading somewhere that Consecrate was currently the strongest AoE spell in game.


I actually believe this... as Prot, Consec was ticking on Beta for close to what it ticks for me on Live the last time I tanked something.
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