Guys don't worry

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Loras » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:35 pm

Huon wrote:I miss hard heroics :cry:

I miss hard heroics as well. But at the same time I don't miss *long* heroics. Or, I miss them, but spending 2 hours on a heroic (especially if there are wipes) is not fun. That's why I loved Black Morass. If you wipe, it hurts. If you do it, you do it fast. Fast-paced action, no shitty slowing RP repeatable events, no "kill this pack, run to the 2nd, drink, AFK. Next pack, kill, run forward, drink, etc. Just kill kill kill and get out :) VH tried to copy that model, but it was far far faaaaar away from the intense feeling of the original and quickly became more tedious than fun.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:09 pm

Loras wrote:
Huon wrote:I miss hard heroics :cry:

I miss hard heroics as well. But at the same time I don't miss *long* heroics. Or, I miss them, but spending 2 hours on a heroic (especially if there are wipes) is not fun. That's why I loved Black Morass. If you wipe, it hurts. If you do it, you do it fast. Fast-paced action, no shitty slowing RP repeatable events, no "kill this pack, run to the 2nd, drink, AFK. Next pack, kill, run forward, drink, etc. Just kill kill kill and get out :) VH tried to copy that model, but it was far far faaaaar away from the intense feeling of the original and quickly became more tedious than fun.

Clearly in Cataclysm we should have TBC hard Heroic Maraudon. (You have to start on Purple side and clear everything up to Princess for credit!) <_<
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Amirya » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:15 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Clearly in Cataclysm we should have TBC hard Heroic Maraudon. (You have to start on Purple side and clear everything up to Princess for credit!) <_<

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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:42 pm

What they haven't told you is that at the "end" of Heroic Deadmines, the Juggernaut sails out of the harbor towards STV and you must then perform a full 85 tuned ZG run including the Edge of Madness to get credit.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Darielle » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:30 am

Clearly in Cataclysm we should have TBC hard Heroic Maraudon. (You have to start on Purple side and clear everything up to Princess for credit!) <_<


Heroic Sunken Temple!

And the pillars have a random order that you have to push them in that you have to figure out on the fly. Also, the troll minibosses have to be killed in a specific order.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Noradin » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:30 am

Darielle wrote:
Clearly in Cataclysm we should have TBC hard Heroic Maraudon. (You have to start on Purple side and clear everything up to Princess for credit!) <_<


Heroic Sunken Temple!

And the pillars have a random order that you have to push them in that you have to figure out on the fly. Also, the troll minibosses have to be killed in a specific order.


Today they would split such instances (as Sunken Temple, BRD, Strat and Maraudon) into several wings like they first did in Dire Maul.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby hoho » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:17 am

KysenMurrin wrote:How many dps specs don't have CC now? DKs have nothing
They can offtank or kite. Everyone has at least one way to CC mobs
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Gracerath » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:24 am

hoho wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:How many dps specs don't have CC now? DKs have nothing
They can offtank or kite. Everyone has at least one way to CC mobs


If you want to be super technical, I guess but lets be real here. If a mob can be off tanked by a DPS DK, then it really isn't that dangerous and you may as well have the main tank hold onto it as well.

To me, kiting is kind of of a "last ditch effort" when no other option is available. Its kinda lame that the kiter is effectively removed from the fight while other classes can CC and continue to help on the main target.

Note: I have no real issue with that model but when just about every other class has a "real" CC, it seems a little more of a glaring issue.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Sharlos » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:42 am

Gracerath wrote:
hoho wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:How many dps specs don't have CC now? DKs have nothing
They can offtank or kite. Everyone has at least one way to CC mobs


If you want to be super technical, I guess but lets be real here. If a mob can be off tanked by a DPS DK, then it really isn't that dangerous and you may as well have the main tank hold onto it as well.

To me, kiting is kind of of a "last ditch effort" when no other option is available. Its kinda lame that the kiter is effectively removed from the fight while other classes can CC and continue to help on the main target.

Note: I have no real issue with that model but when just about every other class has a "real" CC, it seems a little more of a glaring issue.

Not necessarily, you can make mobs dangerous to the MT without being deadly to a lesser-geared off tank.

Things like debuffs, a pull with 2 melee and one caster, the maintank gets hit with a debuff increasing magic damage taken by 500% and the caster just spams weak shadowbolts.

In that situation a CC or an off-tank will work just as well.
Last edited by Sharlos on Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Gracerath » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:57 am

I guess. I just don't really see that situation happening very often. And there would be other ways to handle it. Have a ranged dps get threat on it until it casts its debuff, then have the tank taunt it, etc. I'm not saying off tanking doesn't have its place, I just think it's not a real reason to not give these classes a CC.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Sharlos » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:07 am

Gracerath wrote:I guess. I just don't really see that situation happening very often. And there would be other ways to handle it. Have a ranged dps get threat on it until it casts its debuff, then have the tank taunt it, etc. I'm not saying off tanking doesn't have its place, I just think it's not a real reason to not give these classes a CC.

Frankly the pull you described is a lot more interesting than "Sheep that mob and don't hit it until everything else is dead."

I think people are confusing the need to CC things with fun. Needing to CC things isn't fun, its irritating. That's why Paladins were popular 5man tanks in BC. Having enemies being dangerous enough that you can't simply tank and spank everything is fun.

As for why DKs don't have a CC, I think when blizzard we're creating them as a 'all three specs can tank' giving them a CC would give tanking DKs a hefty advantage over the other tanks, as far as I can recall no other tank spec has CC outside short stuns and such.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Gracerath » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:27 am

I can recall no other tank spec has CC outside short stuns and such.


Well yeah, but above we were talking about a DPS specced DK and it will be especially true in Cataclysm when there is a dedicated tank tree, so a talented or otherwise CC might not be out of the picture and I really can't think of any good reason to exclude them from having one. DPS warriors are in a similar boat due to the unreliable nature of fear but at least its something extra.

Again, I don't really feel too strongly about it one way or the other, just saying that any argument to not give a DPS DK an extra or improved CC in cataclysm is is gonna be pretty weak.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Candiru » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:47 pm

Bears can hibernate / roots to pull and then go Bear and tank!

And they are cuddly! :)

Although, roots being castable indoors didn't happen until WOTLK, where no-one used CC so you might not have noticed. And the druids can't really renew CC mid-pull without becoming a bit squishy. Unless they only have one mob on them, they they can stun->CC->Bear.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Ryyu » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:22 pm

Im guessing we won't be going back to the Crazy CC land of TBC, but from what i can see there will be packs with one or two Mobs that need to ether be CCed or at least Handled by interrupts or stuns lest the group suddenly die of a bad case of being on fire.

Stone core seems to Reflect this.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Koatanga » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:37 pm

Shadow Labs and its Heroic counterpart were pretty famous for the need for CC. In particular, the double-shadow-priest pull in the ogre room. They were just nasty.

Magister's Terrace was another good one for CC.

Note this is before everyone got geared to the teeth and the days of AoE fest began. This is also the days when Paladin tanks were rare - warriors and bears did the real tanking.

Warriors and bears had very few AoE abilities, so it was very important to maintain CC and target wisely.

Once people clued in to how OP paladins were in 5-mans, we were THE choice for instancing. Still lagged way behind in raiding, but for instances we rocked.

Personally, I think they have got it wrong with the whole AoE thing. There's no real need for strong AoE damage in any encounter. People just use it to pad the damage meters on trash.

All you need to do to limit the use of AoE and have people think about targeting is to nerf the hell out of AoE. If it is only a DPS increase when used on 5 or more targets, then people will not use AoE on smaller pulls. It's that simple. They will pad the meter better with single-target on smaller pulls, so they will use single-target DPS.

And if they still want the flavour of people being attacked by an army of murlocs, they can still do it, and people would dust off their AoE spells and have a fun time blowing stuff up.

Instead they gave pretty much everyone a potent AoE that is getting even more potent with Cata, then they say they don't want people using AoE all the time, and then they nerf AoE tanking abilities. Seems silly to me.
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