Guys don't worry

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Sputterduck » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:16 pm

Arcand wrote:And the very choicest ones will tell you not to mark. :roll: I haven't yet made a macro that says "/p I've been marking targets for years, I do it without even thinking about it. If you prefer ignorance to information, just ignore them." but I'm getting closer.

I'm making this the next time I sign on
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Pizbit » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:36 pm

Heh, when I first started tanking on my druid with the horrible aoe threat etc I had a macro that said:

I'm marking a skull, attacking it first is optional, but doing so will greatly increase your chance at not dying.


I had macroed the Skull marking to Feral Faeri Fire.


Slightly more on topic, I forsee a diminished use of LFD by tanks and healers in preference to a return to the TBC style of creating groups, a solid friends list of players only on your server.

Entirely far too much of the general WoW population has been conditioned to completely ignore markings and their CC spells to point that if CC is required from more than one DPSer a pull and more than once in that pull, I think I'd rather tear my hair out than do a fully random LFD. At most I'd fill 1 DPS 1 Healer.

It seems the current implementation of the concept of 'we want players to use less aoe' is about using CC when I'd like to see more interesting single mob pulls or even trash 'packs' of just 2 mobs that really really hurt.

Most people can handle the responsibility of CCing one of two targets down well enough as it's obvious if they failed and the target selection is simple. Related to that would be to make the to-be-CCed target 1.5 to 2 times the size of the doesn't-have-to-be-CCed.
Any more than two and there's a tendency(remembering my TBC days here) to forgo casting their CC spell in favour of doing damage in the hope that no one would notice there was one extra non-CC'd mob in the pull than there should have been.
If they got called out on it they'd simply claim "someone elses aoe hit it, I cc'd it honest!", "I couldn't target/figure out which I was to CC in all those mobs(even if it was a pull of 3)" or let rip with abuse at the tank to try distract from their own laziness/incompetence.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Gideon » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:07 am

Oh man, if I could do TBC again with my WotLK toolkit.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby PsiVen » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:04 am

Sputterduck wrote:
Arcand wrote:And the very choicest ones will tell you not to mark. :roll: I haven't yet made a macro that says "/p I've been marking targets for years, I do it without even thinking about it. If you prefer ignorance to information, just ignore them." but I'm getting closer.

I'm making this the next time I sign on


My personal favorites are the ones who mark their own targets which don't align what they should actually be attacking, and then expect me to follow them.

Invariably, it's because of an addon that they don't know how to turn off.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Shathus » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:19 am

In TBC I used five of the Function keys (F7-F11) to marking icons so I could mark mobs easily. Skull, X and Triangle for DPS targets, and Moon, Blue Square since those were the (mostly) universal sheep/frost trap identifies. Needless to say the last 2 buttons haven't gotten much love in a long time.

I tend to still mark Skull on a mob that I will be focusing first when I'm tanking on my druid or DK, just because they're not as geared and I'd like to hope people will at least focus ONE target for 5 seconds before attacking whatever they want.

Going further off topic, I noticed while I've been running heroics to gear up by DK, when I was in quest/dungeon blues, I was paired with less geared people, but they also seemed to follow directions better (actually attacked the Skull) and were less of jack-asses overall. Now that I've got some emblem gear/epics, etc I'm getting more of the 'GOGOGOGO' group and more idiots in general.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby rodos » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:10 pm

PsiVen wrote:My personal favorites are the ones who mark their own targets which don't align what they should actually be attacking, and then expect me to follow them.

Invariably, it's because of an addon that they don't know how to turn off.

I have a tendency to do "backseat marking" as a healer or even dps if there's a real benefit and the tank isn't marking. Usually a flamecaller in those packs after Ick in PoS or the spellflingers in AK.

Sometimes the runeshapers in HoL too, although I tend to just heal from max HoJ range and whack the runeshaper when he goes nuts - far more eHPS in preventing that whirlwind than trying to heal up stupid melee who can't interrupt or GTFO of the way.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Koatanga » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:19 pm

I wonder how much CC will actually be required. In early BC as a rogue I couldn't catch a cold, much less an instance run, because I wasn't a "dps/cc" by which they meant mage or hunter.

Imagine now with so many DPS warriors and DKs who don't even have sap as a CC. Not only do they not have CC, but a lot of their damage comes from hitting multiple things at once, or applying diseases, etc.

Who is going to want them in a CC-heavy environment?

It would seem that LFG will be chocked full of non-CC DPS looking for runs, which is even more incentive to stick to the people in your guild or friends list.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Darielle » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:11 am

Koatanga wrote:I wonder how much CC will actually be required. In early BC as a rogue I couldn't catch a cold, much less an instance run, because I wasn't a "dps/cc" by which they meant mage or hunter.

Imagine now with so many DPS warriors and DKs who don't even have sap as a CC. Not only do they not have CC, but a lot of their damage comes from hitting multiple things at once, or applying diseases, etc.

Who is going to want them in a CC-heavy environment?

It would seem that LFG will be chocked full of non-CC DPS looking for runs, which is even more incentive to stick to the people in your guild or friends list.


Probably not nearly as much as people feel it is. CC wasn't particularly required in BC either, but people seem to prefer "Bring X number of CC and pray one of them has CC on their bars" to "Play smart and use interrupts/stuns/focus fire/abilitiesyourclasshas".

Hell, some of the fastest and most controlled/enjoyable runs of BC heroics that >I< had were with no CC.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Loras » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:29 am

Darielle wrote:Hell, some of the fastest and most controlled/enjoyable runs of BC heroics that >I< had were with no CC.

Yeah, with geared people and top-notch skilled ones. The average-geared and average-skilled group just couldn't do shit if there was no CC. Especially without a paladin tank.
I still remember the "LFM" announcements. Rogues were being taken only if they had improved sap, people prefered to go with 3 mages instead of caring about loot, etc.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Darielle » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:48 am

Loras wrote:Yeah, with geared people and top-notch skilled ones. The average-geared and average-skilled group just couldn't do shit if there was no CC. Especially without a paladin tank.


Bleh, they were nowhere near that unforgiving. We were in blues, I was a clicker while healing who used default unitframes when they were even crappier than they are now, one of the tanks I ran with didn't know what Shield Block was and would lose threat to people who were wanding, there were Ret Pallies involved, etc. We >were< the average-geared and average-skilled group.

As a random aside: People get dumber as things get easier. Wrath has shown that effect brilliantly. Apparently we're about to find out if the inverse is true.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby twinkfist » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:52 am

i just remember the killer instances being shadowlabs and arcatraz.

i just ran arc so many times it became hilarious...i remember those two infernals before the last boss...i swear those two infernals caused more wipes than the bosses did.

i loved running through shattered halls, slave pens, botanica...and wrecking the black morass
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:07 am

Darielle wrote:As a random aside: People get dumber as things get easier. Wrath has shown that effect brilliantly. Apparently we're about to find out if the inverse is true.

I don't think that statement is true at all, at least of individual people. Lazier, perhaps, but not dumber. They don't lose the capability of thinking when content gets easy, but they might stop doing so because that thinking isn't required.

The effect you're describing might be true on average though - as content gets easier, the average player gets dumber. That's not due to people actively getting dumber though. By setting the bar lower, the content has opened up to a much larger pool of players and to weaker players.

By analogy, if you add a bunch of drooling morons to a room full of rocket scientists, the average intelligence of a person in the room has gone down, but the intelligence of any one individual hasn't changed.
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:53 am

How many dps specs don't have CC now? DKs have nothing, did they go ahead with that Warrior change to turn one of their multi-target things into a single-target CC (was it Intimidating Shout or Piercing Howl or something else)?
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Loras » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:39 pm

Darielle wrote:
Loras wrote:Yeah, with geared people and top-notch skilled ones. The average-geared and average-skilled group just couldn't do shit if there was no CC. Especially without a paladin tank.


Bleh, they were nowhere near that unforgiving. We were in blues, I was a clicker while healing who used default unitframes when they were even crappier than they are now, one of the tanks I ran with didn't know what Shield Block was and would lose threat to people who were wanding, there were Ret Pallies involved, etc. We >were< the average-geared and average-skilled group.

As a random aside: People get dumber as things get easier. Wrath has shown that effect brilliantly. Apparently we're about to find out if the inverse is true.


OK, some heroics worked out well. But if you haven't cursed at least once the room before the Ogre boss in Shadow Labyrinth HC with a no-cc party with shitty gear and brainzzz, then I think you're an alien :)
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Re: Guys don't worry

Postby Huon » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:27 pm

I miss hard heroics :cry:
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