New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Shathus » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:44 am

Candiru wrote:Hand of Freedom would make the most sense to add a movement increasing effect. It has such a short duration now that it wouldn't be OP to have a +40-60% sprint attached. It would also make the increased duration on HoF talent worth consideration for prot paladins.

Although then you are going to getprot paladin OTs popping wings, healing hands, hand of freedom and running around healing AoE damage!


Well holy radiance is currently 40% of base mana, so between those spells alone that's only half your mana pool. I don't think they're too concerned about prot healing in raids :)
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Chicken » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:07 am

Just responding in general to folks on the last page, I'd quote you folks but that'd end up with a far too large quotation above my post.

I'd say the difference between a gap closer and an interrupt is that a gap closer is convenience utility: Having a gap closer is highly convenient, but having or not having one mostly results in a small change in what you're doing; where a group with a warrior and druid tanking on Blood Queen Lanathel can have their tanks spread far away, a group that has a Paladin and Death Knight tanking should be instructing its raiders to not try hiding around the spot Lanathel is tanked normally. An interrupt is more mandatory utility: While not required on all encounters, the encounters that do require interrupts always have them as a vital part.

Obviously that's all part of encounter design as well. One of the reasons that a tank is never required to have a gap closer is the simple fact that not all tanks have a gap closer. In that regard no encounters rely on the tank having interrupts either as others mentioned, the DPS can (and typically do even if you don't have a Paladin tank) handle the interrupts. I'd still rather have an interrupt of the two, as currently that's problematic for council style fights for 10-man guilds with two Paladins as tanks: There's little as frustrating as barely being able to do anything about the abilities Stormcaller Brundir uses, or to have to watch as you're the only person in range of Vezax to interrupt and you can't because of that GCD on Hammer of Justice.

Personally I think the fact that Paladins and Death Knights don't have a charge ability to be part of their unique charm; where the Druid and Warrior bring themselves to the enemy, we prefer bringing the enemies to us. In that regard I'm more in favor of Loras's idea as well, rather than giving us access to Long Arm of the Law. That's part of the pulling utility of a gap closer though, which I will not deny is pretty big.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Minarva » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:16 am

I agree with Chicken fully, while I would like a gap closer, I don't think its particularly needed (and we probably don't have it due to Righteous Defence). I do however think that now especially with HoJ no longer interrupting we -need- an interrupt. We could get by with the inconvenience on live because HoJ was good enough on emergencies - but now without that I have to think rebuke is going to be shared around a bit more (else I can't see why HoJ had the interrupt removed).
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Relwynd » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:39 am

While I will admit that I've gotten used to having no gap closer, gosh darn I'd love to have something to get the stray ranged to me... nothing is more aggravating that trying to pick up 2-3 casters/ranged that are split and out of shield range (also, the daze is retarded "Oh I'll silence them so they run towards me... except they will not because they are dazed".)

Also, maybe you guys are just lucky and have nice DPS, but when I have a runner, I can taunt, have it get 2/3's the way to me, then have it go running off again because someone had more threat/DPS'd on it/was a moron. I'm totally dependent on having the mob be able to reach me before the fixate wears off...
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby steadypal » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:42 am

does anybody know why blinding shield didnt even make it to beta? it was one of those talents i was really excited about getting, prot pallies pretty much get nothing new compared to current live... yes we get a shield wall at lvl 85, but at the cost of losing our current shield wall...



also how do you think they are going to tweak hotr and CS? cause they've stated we'll use one for aoe and one for single target, but in beta CS hits like crap,,, hotr hits like more crap but the holy nova hits for a good amount, so hotr in all rotations? or do they buff CS dmg, or do they nerf the hotr holy nova dmg to the ground?
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Neziah » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:51 am

"Shield Rush" anyone? :D
A gap closer is one thing I do miss from tanking on my warrior, but I think I would really like a more "available" cast interrupt of some sort to be honest.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Arcand » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:00 am

steadypal wrote:do they buff CS dmg, or do they nerf the hotr holy nova dmg to the ground?


Ooo! Ooo! I know this one!

* Waves hand excitedly *
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Chicken » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:05 am

steadypal wrote:does anybody know why blinding shield didnt even make it to beta? it was one of those talents i was really excited about getting, prot pallies pretty much get nothing new compared to current live... yes we get a shield wall at lvl 85, but at the cost of losing our current shield wall...
Technically we do get an additional cooldown. While we don't newly gain a shield wall, we do gain a barkskin equivalent. 20% damage reduction isn't as impressive as 50%, but it's usable twice as often which is nice. As for the loss of Blinding Shield, I can offer you only speculation on that subject; I suspect it's due to overlap with Holy Wrath.

steadypal wrote:also how do you think they are going to tweak hotr and CS? cause they've stated we'll use one for aoe and one for single target, but in beta CS hits like crap,,, hotr hits like more crap but the holy nova hits for a good amount, so hotr in all rotations? or do they buff CS dmg, or do they nerf the hotr holy nova dmg to the ground?
They could actually fix this very easily by simply making it so the 'nova' damage of HotR doesn't apply to your original target. I'd rather they tweak the damage scaling of both abilities though*.

*Well actually, I'd prefer they just let us use HotR as primary Holy Power generator, but I'm realistic enough to understand that's not going to happen.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby ginga-uk » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:58 am

Candiru wrote:You could give prot paladins a talent so that while wings are up, they have 30yard melee range? Who needs a gap closer when you can make golden-glowy maces swing at your enemies from a distance!


Mages (esp frost) would still laugh at us.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Yelena » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:03 pm

Minarva wrote:I agree with Chicken fully, while I would like a gap closer, I don't think its particularly needed (and we probably don't have it due to Righteous Defence). I do however think that now especially with HoJ no longer interrupting we -need- an interrupt. We could get by with the inconvenience on live because HoJ was good enough on emergencies - but now without that I have to think rebuke is going to be shared around a bit more (else I can't see why HoJ had the interrupt removed).

Unless it's a tooltip error, but it's still a crappy solution to the interrupt situation:

Avenger's Shield on Beta: Hurls a holy shield at the enemy, dealing 2802 to 3424 Holy damage, silencing them, interrupting for 3 sec, and then jumping to additional nearby enemies. Affects 3 total targets.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Flex » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:10 pm

steadypal wrote:long arm of the law, just SCREAMS out to be a prot tanking tool...



wtf does ret need it for anyways...


This is very obviously a troll.

I don't see why I would have to care about what holy or ret gets when I have no intention of ever playing those specs.


Because every spec of Paladin influences the other two specs.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Chicken » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:15 pm

Yelena wrote:
Minarva wrote:I agree with Chicken fully, while I would like a gap closer, I don't think its particularly needed (and we probably don't have it due to Righteous Defence). I do however think that now especially with HoJ no longer interrupting we -need- an interrupt. We could get by with the inconvenience on live because HoJ was good enough on emergencies - but now without that I have to think rebuke is going to be shared around a bit more (else I can't see why HoJ had the interrupt removed).

Unless it's a tooltip error, but it's still a crappy solution to the interrupt situation:

Avenger's Shield on Beta: Hurls a holy shield at the enemy, dealing 2802 to 3424 Holy damage, silencing them, interrupting for 3 sec, and then jumping to additional nearby enemies. Affects 3 total targets.
I should probably have edited in the words 'off the GCD' before interrupt in my post above, and I actually hope they change that back so it doesn't interrupt. If there's one thing an Enhancement Shaman I know always used to bitch about, it's the fact that Earth Shock was an interrupt that was part of his regular damage rotation. We've had a wipe or two due to it on Essence of Desire too, just because he accidentally Earth Shock interrupted her which caused our interrupt rotation to fall apart.

There's just two fatal flaws with having an interrupt attached to an ability you're using as part of your regular rotation:
1. If you want to actually use it to interrupt anything, you're going to have to hold off on using it, which in turn costs you TPS/DPS.
2. As I mentioned above, if you just use it regularly, you run the risk of accidentally interrupting a spell and through that messing with the interrupt rotations that might've been set up.

I'd rather have no interrupt at all than have one attached to AS.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Yelena » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:28 pm

I don't disagree that we would benefit from having an off-GCD interrupt, my post was simply stating that we have an interrupt despite the fact that HoJ's interrupt component was removed. As I also stated, the solution given to us by Blizzard is still pretty crappy.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Chicken » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:31 pm

Yeah sorry, I understood that. I just quoted you to respond to the general implementation Blizzard currently has.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Flex » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:50 pm

I operate under these assumptions:
1) It is more important for Retribution to have an interrupt than Protection.
2) Holy should not have a short cooldown interrupt.

Judging from Druids' Skull Bash, every spec can access it at a 60 second cooldown and Feral gets a talent that reduces the cooldown by 50 seconds, how would you implement it for Paladins?

Baseline 60 second cooldown and both Ret and Prot gets a talent that reduces it? Such as Judgements of the Just and Pursuit of Justice?
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