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New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Modal » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:38 pm

steadypal wrote:long arm of the law, just SCREAMS out to be a prot tanking tool...



wtf does ret need it for anyways...


......
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby ulushnar » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:14 am

steadypal wrote:
wtf does ret need it for anyways...


Wtf does Prot need it for that Ret doesn't?
Be careful when you argue with trolls, lest you become one.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Chicken » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:04 am

I can with full honesty say that I've never felt the need for having a gap closer as tank. It's convenient for pulling, but that's more of a design thing; we used to have a fancy term to describe a Warrior who charged into a group of mobs in TBC: Dead, and you were extremely liable to get adds that way to due to patrols too. In actual encounter usage after the pull the need for it is limited, unlike when playing as DPS mobs typically come to you as tank. Sindragosa is the only ICC encounter I can think of where I can say that I'd love having a gap closer as Prot.

Note specifically that I'm looking here at it is a gap closer. The current implementation would also be useful for Rotface for instance, but you're using it as a kiting tool there, while I see a lot of people here saying we need a gap closer.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Dantriges » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:15 am

It´s pretty handy. You don´t need it but love it if you do, like PoJ was for me.
Perhaps marrowgar when you return from original position, Lady, changing sides, council to get back if melee was too close, as second tank for BQ to insure that a sleeping melee isn´t there before you do, Sindragosa obviously.

I think there were a lot of situation where I could have saved someone if I had been there faster. You can start doing tps when you have the melee mob in range. If something has to be killed ASAp you waste time if the mob has to walk over toyou. And the issue with ranged guys who just stand there and youhave to walk there. At least without the daze, ranged mobs won´t start walking towards you dazed and then half way resume casting.

It´s a tool, a hammer if you want. So ok the charging warrior who got himself killed was usin it wrong. Just because you have a hammer not everything is a nail.
Last edited by Dantriges on Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Levantine » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:24 am

Sometimes I wonder if people know how Death Grip works, since for every single one of the situations you just mentioned DG would have been useless at best and a horrible wipe from a bad taunt at worse.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Candiru » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:33 am

You could give prot paladins a talent so that while wings are up, they have 30yard melee range? Who needs a gap closer when you can make golden-glowy maces swing at your enemies from a distance!
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby trellian » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:53 am

Flex wrote:
Modal wrote:Edit: Man, not to respond to anyone in particular, but sometimes I get the impression that some posters regard holy and ret as whole other classes, and only care about prot prot prot.


That's my biggest issue with many Paladin posters in general. The only spec that matters is the one they play.


And that's exactly how I see it. I tried holy on my paladin, I didn't like it. I tried Ret on my paladin, but I didn't like it. Prot I like a lot. So why would I not root for some nice spec dependant abilities? I don't see why I would have to care about what holy or ret gets when I have no intention of ever playing those specs.

All I'm talking about is some nice enhancing abilities for multi-role classes like some of these:

Priest Leap of faith / Mind Spike
Shaman Healing Rains / Spiritwalker's Grace / Unleash Elements
DK Dark Simulacrum / Necrotic Strike / Outbreak
Druid Wild Mushroom / Stampeding Roar / Thrash
Warrior Heroic Leap

I guess you could say we get inquisition, but it remains to be seen if we'll even get to use it on anything besides farm content.

Sure we got an AD button now, but that's something we should have gotten in wotlk. It's a minor change to an existing talent. <sarcasm>And wooptydoo, we get CS!! Such an iconic protection ability.</sarcasm>

I'm not saying we HAVE to get anything or that the sky is falling, I was just very excited to hear about blinding shield and very disappointed that it got pulled. And I remain hoping that it will see a return. Just so we get a new toy to do our job. Which is protecting!


When I see skills added to other classes like Leap of faith, Camouflage, Smoke Bomb, Curtain of Frost I can't help but thinking "WOW, those are some awesome new abilities opening up a huge can of new posibilities!" and I get jealous :)
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Dantriges » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:01 am

Levantine wrote:Sometimes I wonder if people know how Death Grip works, since for every single one of the situations you just mentioned DG would have been useless at best and a horrible wipe from a bad taunt at worse.


I talked about a gap closer in general, not Deathgrip. I was talking about getting there faster. It´s not all about the dark brooding guy in the plate. I should have taken Deathgrip out of the post, just in case.
Also grabbing the ranged guy is better than charging there. Like Lady´s adds. I saw a lot of enemy caster flying into the raid in the first seconds (ok not so hot if reflecting shield is already up) I am not talking about boss, you only need a gap closer in the first seconds there if at all.

Deathgrip has its own utility and well as long as IT has such a big threat modifier, who needs a gap closer for the mobs who can´t get gripped and it´s improbably that DPS is able to exceed it in the time you need to get over there.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Levantine » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:16 am

Your post was worded terribly. I just read it again and it still reads like you think DG is a gap closer in the same way as charge. Maybe it's just that you used Sindragosa as your final example.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Dantriges » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:29 am

Ok it´s worded terribly, probably.

To rephrase my statement:

I would like a gapcloser like charge in my toolbox because I think it´s a nice tool.

And I played a Dk from Naxx to ICC when the content was still relevant so I know Deathgrip isn´t the same as charge and it has its limitations.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby trellian » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:35 am

Just thinking of a possible implementation, something like the Warlocks' portal, but then being able to teleport enemy units would be awesome :)

Might be OP in PVP though ;). Otoh, I don't see much use for a prot specced paladin in PVP right now except as a Flag carrier.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Loras » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:38 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:I don't think silence + disarm - daze works as a gap closer though, Loras, because gap closer doesn't mean pulling tool, it means way to shorten distance between you and something/someone else.

Mobs coming to you instead of standing on their place shooting is not a distance closer?

If you treat DG as a gap-closer (yeah yeah, I obviously don't know what it's doing), then AS is a similar half-working one (as it also doesn't work in raid boss environment, but for other situations doesn't solve the problem with archers).

Let's put it this way:
1. Warriors and Bears have a fully working identical gap closer that A) moves THEM to the BOSS, B) works on EVERY fight
2. DKs and Paladins have an "identical" gap closer that A) moves MOBS to THEM, B) works only in limited situations
Point 2.A seems most logical for fixing if AS has a disarm. As currently DG can move ANY non-immune mob to you instantly, be it melee, caster, or archer. Our AS makes it so that melees and casters move to us, but not archers. Granted, if it disarms also, that will be a gap closer for 3 targets simultaneously, compared to DG and its 1 target, but that would come at the price of speed (DG does it instantly, AS requires time).

And you do NOT need a gap closer, but as someone said, it's nice and fun to have. If 2 or 3 other tank classes have it, then I don't see a reason not to. Same with off-GCD interrupts. You do not need one - your dpsers can interrupt. With other 3 tank classes getting one, don't you wanna have it too? And since I'm sure people will jump on the DG ability comments again - I am not asking for a charge-like gap closer (although I'd love it) - gimme something from the caliber of DG and I'll be fine. That's why I suggested about the disarm component of AS to make it even.

trellian wrote:
Flex wrote:
Modal wrote:Edit: Man, not to respond to anyone in particular, but sometimes I get the impression that some posters regard holy and ret as whole other classes, and only care about prot prot prot.


That's my biggest issue with many Paladin posters in general. The only spec that matters is the one they play.


And that's exactly how I see it. I tried holy on my paladin, I didn't like it. I tried Ret on my paladin, but I didn't like it. Prot I like a lot. So why would I not root for some nice spec dependant abilities? I don't see why I would have to care about what holy or ret gets when I have no intention of ever playing those specs.


Jimmy plays mage, Fire mainspec, Arcane offspec. Why are you trying to make Jimmy care about Frost?
And that's even a poor example, as it doesn't change your role, unlike the different paladin specs. I chose to tank, of course I'd be interested in the Tank spec improvements. And as Trellian said, when seeing a big bunch of the classes get a very nice dynamical interactive fun spell in Cata, us getting none is a little annoying :(
I honestly think Life Grip would've suited paladins a lot more than priests :) We get cooldown changes which are not really something "fun", we got our funniest 81+ spell removed, one of our new spells is just a transformed old spell (seriously, 33% of the new spells you learn in a new expanstion being a spell that you've had for years at level 20-30 or whenever is plain stupid. Hi, guys, I have a nice new spell at lvl 85, it's called Shield Slam!. Oh wait...). I would just love to have something that will make me go "ooooh, niiiiice!!!"(note - nice, NOT op), like lots of other classes do. So far I fail to see any. Unless you count Holy Power in, but... meh...
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Thyre » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:03 am

AS is not a gap closer. At least not more than any other aggroproducing rangeattack in the Game.

Its a pve pulling tool and atm one way to slow people in pvp but not mather what, it is an was never a gap closer.

Slowing People in pvp or forcing pve mobs to attack, and therfore running to you, is not a ... you know ... gap closer.
Last edited by Thyre on Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Shathus » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:09 am

What about maybe a Prot talent like a Priest's Body and Soul, that affects our Hand of Freedom? So for us, only useable every 25 seconds, but provides a 6 second speed burst. If people are concerns about being able to give other classes a speed burst with it, maybe it would only affect HoF cast on yourself.

Ret - Long Arm of the Law - judgement speed up
Holy - Speed of Light - tied to Holy Radiance (30 sec with talents)
Prot - <something catchy> - tied to hand of freedom.

So then all 3 specs have some kind of speed burst, but none of them can get 1 from the other tree (all too deep), but it's still something unique to pally's and not just a clone of another ability?
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Candiru » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:38 am

Hand of Freedom would make the most sense to add a movement increasing effect. It has such a short duration now that it wouldn't be OP to have a +40-60% sprint attached. It would also make the increased duration on HoF talent worth consideration for prot paladins.

Although then you are going to getprot paladin OTs popping wings, healing hands, hand of freedom and running around healing AoE damage!
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