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New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Rasmfrackn » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:01 pm

Flex wrote:
knaughty wrote:
Flex wrote:I am unsure of the DK gap closer.

Death Grip?
Use it on a stun immune mob.

Meh, believe it or don't, I'm sure AS is our "gap closer" checkbox right now too since it's a snare, even though there are snare immunes too. But, as it's losing the snare, we do need SOMEthing that works under MOST circumstances. LaotL would actually be a really useful one as things go, and may be even too versatile compared to say charge (judge one thing, run the other way), but a tank should have some sort of way to get in the way of a mob running towards someone else.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Loras » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:12 pm

When AS gets the daze component removed and disarms the ranged weapon of archers for 5-10 seconds, then I'll consider it gap closer.

And yes, Death Grip IS a gap-closer, that just doesn't work on bosses and a tiny part of the mobs. Which leaves another 90% of possible targets that are vulnerable to it.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Arincia » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:19 pm

Anyone else notice Wrath of the Lightbringer now is 20% more crit and damage on holy wrath, judgement, and Hammer of wrath. I dont remember judgement or hammer of wrath being in there before. It might be they are considering hammer of wrath as part of a prot rotation? It would odd to place in there as its a 6 sec cooldown. If you included Hammer of wrath how might a potential rotation be optimized then with it?
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby knaughty » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:18 am

Loras wrote:When AS gets the daze component removed

What, like in Cataclysm?

Don't have beta client to check current state, but removal of daze has already been announced.

We have Exorcism, AS, 30-yard Judge if we want it. I'd LIKE access to Long Arm of the Mini-Charge, but we don't need it.

I keep losing track of interrupt status, but assuming 3/4 tanks have an off GCD spell interrupt in Cata, then I think we need it as well.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Kelthizan » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:21 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:Meh, believe it or don't, I'm sure AS is our "gap closer" checkbox right now too since it's a snare, even though there are snare immunes too. But, as it's losing the snare, we do need SOMEthing that works under MOST circumstances. LaotL would actually be a really useful one as things go, and may be even too versatile compared to say charge (judge one thing, run the other way), but a tank should have some sort of way to get in the way of a mob running towards someone else.


I think that Righteous Defender is supposed to fill that role? (it's not like other tanks have a short cooldown multiple adds ranged taunt)
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:27 am

Anyone else think Healing Hands was a much better name than Holy Radiance? Even if it doesn't quite fit the spell effect? Holy Radiance is kinda boring, imo.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Chicken » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:54 am

It is, but I guess they want to keep the whole "Hand" thing limited to the specific hand spells to make sure there's no confusion. Kinda boring though.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby ginga-uk » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:03 am

Is it my imagination, or does ret aura make you do about triple damage at the moment?
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Loras » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:26 am

knaughty wrote:
Loras wrote:When AS gets the daze component removed AND disarming ranged mobs

What, like in Cataclysm?

Don't have beta client to check current state, but removal of daze has already been announced.

We have Exorcism, AS, 30-yard Judge if we want it. I'd LIKE access to Long Arm of the Mini-Charge, but we don't need it.

I keep losing track of interrupt status, but assuming 3/4 tanks have an off GCD spell interrupt in Cata, then I think we need it as well.

*sigh* I was sure that someone would make that comment, I should've bolded the "AND" right from the start.
Daze AND disarm, Knaughty. :D There isn't much of a gap closing when 3 mobs come your way, but 2 more stand there and keep shooting. In order to fill the "we don't want tools to get to the mobs, we want tools for the MOBS to get to us", it should silence + not daze + disarm archers, to make full packs run to us.


Ginga-uk wrote:Is it my imagination, or does ret aura make you do about triple damage at the moment?

Just check the latest druid Thorns changes ;)
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Flex » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:30 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:Meh, believe it or don't


The point is Death Grip does not pull in stun immune mobs so to argue that it is a gap closer is built on very weak grounds.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Flex » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:37 am

Modal wrote:Edit: Man, not to respond to anyone in particular, but sometimes I get the impression that some posters regard holy and ret as whole other classes, and only care about prot prot prot.


That's my biggest issue with many Paladin posters in general. The only spec that matters is the one they play.

A simple way to resolve many prot holy power issues is to give us an Anger Management type ability. While in combat we generate one Holy Power per X seconds.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby 2ndNin » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:31 pm

I would go another way and make it so that the baseline paladin cannot generate any holy power. When you pick your primary talent tree you get your holy power generator:

Retribution: Empowered Judgements - your judgement ability generates 1 Holy Power on cast (offensive generation)
Protection: Empowered Faith - your hammer of the righteous ability generates 1 holy power on cast and your holy shield ability generates 1 holy power for each 10% HP damage you take while active (small hits do not empower it / or do it slowly).
Holy: Empowered Light - your flash of light generates 1 holy power on cast, your holy shock has a chance to generate 1 holy power on cast (healing generation)

Then work from there so that we get the type of rotations we want since the uses of holy power at current seem rather lacking, make it something we really want and that plays into our roles and abilities, for this we could actually canabalise the existing trees.

Shield of the Righteous - Slam the target for 100% AP damage as holy damage, increased by 30/75/150% for 1/2/3 Holy Power
Divine Storm - Attacks four nearby targets for 50% AP as holy damage and 50% AP as physical damage, increased by 25,60,100% for 1/2/3 Holy Power (since ret can't realistically use Shield of the Righteous).
Healing Radiance - Heals nearby targets for 200% SP spread equally over 1-10 targets. Increased by 30/75/150% for 1/2/3 Holy Power

Then the corresponding other abilities:

Shield of the Faithful - Places a damage reduction effect on you equivalent to 75/175/300% of your AP for 1/2/3 Holy Power
Divine Aegis - Heals yourself and nearby players for 25/50/100% of your damage done for 1/2/3 Holy Power
Grace of the Fallen - Replenishes 10/20/30% of your SP as man for 1/2/3 holy power

Possibly with a secondary generator in each tree:
Wings / Ret - While active each attack generates 1 holy power
Divine Protection - While active, each 2% HP damage taken generates 1 holy power (so each hit you don't dodge / block should fill your holy power bar, max ~6 times during the time for 6 slams or increasing shields)
Beacon of Light - Each time you cast holy light on the beacon target you gain 1 Holy Power (I think its moving to a non 100% uptime).

Then each tree is slightly different and interesting, with the option to trade protection/healing for damage/longevity making us more hybridesque with a rate of flow set to each tree rather than trying to work crusader strike into all of our rotations. I would like to see a third spell use it for each tree though, perhaps as an AoE type ability?

Prot - Holy Wrath can be triggered early by 5s / 1 HP
Ret - Conscecration's cooldown reduced by 5s/1HP (so 10up/15cd)
Holy - Holy Light's cost reduced by 10/20/30% per 1 HP (efficiency rather than aoe?)

Again I would say that a 100% gcd usage or close to it should be the ideal for us (since it allows each spell to hit for less individually) so that we do trade damage for utility. Our rotation would then ideally not be fixed but semi close to it such that the basic skill level needed to play (reasonably) is capable of doing the basic rotation something like 969, the pro-rotation is / generates gaps intentionally to delay ShoR into more damaging slots, the ultra-pro rotation is then filling the pro-rotation slots with utility.

Side thought actually... consecration as a HP generator, since its 1/3rd uptime if each tick of it generated 1 HP we could have a burst damage mechanic making us still reliant on consc yet in a way which makes its use very tactical. Seems like we could do a lot more with it as a tool than simply the inquisition / holy shield mechanic we have been given, so we have tools for different situations but we might want them to overlap (damage reduction vs threat vs Filler slots for Prot, Healing / Damage / AoE for Ret and Efficiency, Regeneration and AoE Heals for Holy) at different times. Prot is of course the hardest to balance since our threat or damage reduction are skewed by abilities like this, but I think you balance threat and have us as the higher mitigation tank but with serious issues with the threat decay when we pump out simple mitigation.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Rasmfrackn » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:33 pm

Flex wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:Meh, believe it or don't


The point is Death Grip does not pull in stun immune mobs so to argue that it is a gap closer is built on very weak grounds.

You're a funny guy, Flex. And MY point was that it's erroneous to think that we don't have one now, in the form of AS with its daze. It's also situational on certain raid mobs, but I'm certain that's what it's for. Something that works 90%+ of the time isn't "very weak" in my estimation, and both DG and AS with daze fit that. DG better than AS usually.

I don't think silence + disarm - daze works as a gap closer though, Loras, because gap closer doesn't mean pulling tool, it means way to shorten distance between you and something/someone else. I.e. something you don't necessarily have aggro on and isn't already interested in running to you. Gap closer is a tool in the toolbox that still functions in PvP, as part of its criteria imo. Disarm would be nice in the current WotLK scheme, but not on a 15 second cooldown with procs to make it happen more... that's too much disarm, and there are different ways of gap closing that can all be good and differentiating. My only concern about long arm is that it's too frequent. If we had a short "sprint" on say a 30 second cooldown as a Hand or something, I think that would be differentiating and useful enough. PoJ+HoF is about like that, but isn't strong enough to actually close a real gap.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby steadypal » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:04 pm

long arm of the law, just SCREAMS out to be a prot tanking tool...



wtf does ret need it for anyways...
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Levantine » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:06 pm

I would have thought the PvP niche was pretty obvious.
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