Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:33 am

Arianne wrote:That's why we have the current Hammer (a hammer of the Light projecting outwards from the protection paladin).

I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with the current animation of Hammer on beta. It has everything to do with "we need to give them a short-cooldown aoe ability, and we already have a Holy Nova animation, so let's just put that in as a placeholder."
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:39 am

Arianne wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I just straight up disagree. Paladins are supposed to be Warriors of the Light. Not, say, Masters of Arms like Warriors, but still up there in shining plate with giant swords/hammers/whatever beating people up. They are combat trained. As a Paladin, my weapon SHOULD hit hard. That's what it's for, not being a "wimpy tank weapon". Furthermore, Crusader Strike, or its namesake at least, was once a baseline Paladin spell. You can't just divorce the Prot Paladin from martial prowess like that. It's just wrong.

As I love to remind people, in Warcraft II, Paladins were *upgrades* to Knights. Turalyon smashed Orgrim Doomhammer's face in with the hilt of Lothar's sword. Please don't presume to dictate what a Paladin is when you forget the roots of the class like that.


"Although he was initially a priest, Turalyon is a skilled and fearsome warrior and can fight as well as any knight. He, like Lothar, is usually seen leading contingents of knights, smashing aside any foe with his warhammer and his aura, spreading encouragement to his own troops and fear into the hearts of his enemies. His determination and faith gives him enough strength to fight dozens of much larger orcs. A skilled tactician, Turalyon is known for his tactics of surprising enemy forces with fearsome charges of knights and foot soldiers while supporting them with arrow and magic."

Paladins are *upgrades* to Knights. Which means that they don't fight with merely physical weapons anymore. They fight with the strength and power of the Light. That's why we have the current Hammer (a hammer of the Light projecting outwards from the protection paladin). CS never made it out of the alpha/beta as a baseline ability. It's a Retribution ability. The Knights infused by the Light who focus on weapons go into Retribution (ie Uther). The Knights infused by the Light who focus on protecting/inspiring their armies go into Protection. The Knights infused by the Light who focus on Healing/Supporting their armies go into Holy.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.


Yeah I think the thing you quoted supported my position more than it did yours...
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Arianne » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:50 am

I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with the current animation of Hammer on beta. It has everything to do with "we need to give them a short-cooldown aoe ability, and we already have a Holy Nova animation, so let's just put that in as a placeholder."


I'm not referring to the Holy Nova graphic on Cata Beta. The current WotLK graphic is a Hammer of Light that hits 3-4 targets.

Yeah I think the thing you quoted supported my position more than it did yours...


warhammer = Hammer of the Righteous (a weapon projection of the Light)
warhammer != hitting someone with Crusader Strike (with a main hand tanking weapon - how is a main hand tanking weapon going to smite anyone?)
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Flex » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:55 am

Arianne wrote:warhammer = Hammer of the Righteous (a weapon projection of the Light)
warhammer != hitting someone with Crusader Strike (with a main hand tanking weapon - how is a main hand tanking weapon going to smite anyone?)


Or, you know, warhammer as in a gigantic mace.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:01 pm

Arianne wrote:
Yeah I think the thing you quoted supported my position more than it did yours...


warhammer = Hammer of the Righteous (a weapon projection of the Light)
warhammer != hitting someone with Crusader Strike (with a main hand tanking weapon - how is a main hand tanking weapon going to smite anyone?)


No, warhammer = a 1 handed mace. He smashed people's heads open with it. He may also have been glowing at the time. He had a shield in his other arm. You know, for blocking attacks. Not for projecting Light. It's not like his actual physical hammer didn't make contact with orc skulls. It definitely did. Turalyon is specifically described as projecting auras of the Light to his allies to guide their blades and protect them from harm. And then he proceeded to smash orcs while glowing. This is how Paladins work. The Light guides our strikes as we smash or rend our enemies.

I also don't get why you are obsessed with main hand tanking weapons being wimpy... my main hand tanking weapon is just fine at smashing things apart, thank you very much. That's what I use it for. Crushing my enemies.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Arianne » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:05 pm

theckhd wrote:
I understand that you don't like hitting the same spell over and over again. But nobody's saying we should do that.

For example, let's say they changed their minds tomorrow about everything. Everything's back to the way it is on live, except for:
-Consecration damage nerfed, so we don't use it on a single target
-Crusader Strike now available as a weak filler on a short cooldown (3s)
-Holy Shield auto-applied by ShoR
-AS is now a 9-second cooldown

So 969 now looks like:

J-HotR-AS-ShoR-?-HotR-J-ShoR-AS-HotR-?

If we put Crusader Strike into those ?'s as a "filler" spell, does that really count as "casting the same thing over and over again?" We still cast it less than ShoR and HotR. Even if AS had a longer cooldown, we'd never cast two CS's back to back - at best they'd be on either side of a 6-second ability.


Using any ability every other ability is bad IMO. If we had the rotation you posted above I'd be happy with it (AS at 9s with a potential to refresh on HotR means that I have less issues with it being in our rotation because it's not so long to hold off if you need to ranged pull something in the middle of a fight). The thing here though is that we're using what I consider 'our signature' abilities regularly in the rotation.

Now look at the beta implementation:

CS-J-?-CS-HW-?-CS-J-ShoR-CS-AS-?

Admittedly, there are still a reasonable number of gaps in there, and I expect we'll get something else to fill them before things go live. But if they gave us a "spammable" filler spell, we'd rarely be casting it back-to-back. We might cast it half as often as CS once AS procs are taken into account, which means every 9 seconds or so. That hardly qualifies as "one ability we just spam."

If anything, the one ability we just spam now is CS due to Holy Power generation. I don't like it either, especially since it removes a lot of the flexibility we can achieve with 969, as you were describing. But unless they decide that Holy Power is just a bad mechanic for prot, I don't see that part changing.

Personally, I'd be OK with Holy Power if the gaps in-between were a little more regular. I liked the earlier implementation where HotR was an 8-second cooldown and not tied to CS. It gave us a nice regular rotation:

CS-J-X-CS-H-X-CS-J-ShoR-CS-H-X

ShoR goes in every 3rd X slot, the rest are filled with HoWra, AS procs, or whatever. It's actually pretty elegant.


CS -> J -> X isn't exciting or interesting to me. Neither is CS -> HW -> X. I'd prefer that they put Holy Power generation on ShoR or HotR for us and removed CS from baseline (as it is, it's going to cause issues with Holy Paladins standing in melee range and using CS to proc SoI and generate HoPo when healing is light).

I've been trying to think of a rotation/scheme for Prot paladins for awhile, but it hasn't crystallized yet. These discussions are helping me think about it, so thanks for discussing with me.

I also don't get why you are obsessed with main hand tanking weapons being wimpy... my main hand tanking weapon is just fine at smashing things apart, thank you very much. That's what I use it for. Crushing my enemies.

Code: Select all
Ability                        Average   Critical
Hammer of the Righteous        4572.4    9369.6
Shield of Righteousness        3647.0    7593.8
Hammer of Wrath                3568.8    6183.2
Judgement of Vengeance         2502.7    4782.9   
Avenger's Shield               2428.6    4889.9
Holy Shield                    1280.6
Holy Vengeance                 1053.5    
Melee                           930.2    1852.9
Seal of Vengeance               449.3     932.2   


Yeah, it really feels like my main hand is 'smashing things apart'. The only thing it does more damage than is Seal of Vengeance (the damage on hit). Of course, since you're using a DPS weapon, yours probably does more, but tanks aren't designed around using a DPS weapon (currently, maybe hopefully in the future they'll get rid of them).
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Modal » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:19 pm

The thing I like about the extremely hard-hitting HotR is that it feels like I'm cleaving things with my main-hand tanking weapon. The thing I like about ShoR is that it feels like I'm smacking things with my shield. Of course both things are enhanced by the Light or whatever and so they glow! And do armor-piercing holy damage! Yay extra coolness!

I would not like a tanking model that involved putting away my hammer and shield and casting holy spells at things. To the extent that our animations are like that now, I think they're fail at making paladins paladins.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Modal wrote:The thing I like about the extremely hard-hitting HotR is that it feels like I'm cleaving things with my main-hand tanking weapon. The thing I like about ShoR is that it feels like I'm smacking things with my shield. Of course both things are enhanced by the Light or whatever and so they glow! And do armor-piercing holy damage! Yay extra coolness!

I would not like a tanking model that involved putting away my hammer and shield and casting holy spells at things. To the extent that our animations are like that now, I think they're fail at making paladins paladins.


Yeah that was my big problem throughout BC.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Sonic » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:20 pm

The CLANG! animation for HotR always gave the impression of it hitting hard. I think that's the main problem I have with CS as prot. Thw twist is alright but it doesn't have the power feel to it.

As of the current build "wimpy tank weapon" is rather accurate. The feeling just ins't there. ShoR could use a sound for it as well imo. A nice heavy thud/thunk or whatnot.

Gotta say I love the hammer fall idea. A rain of hammers comming down would be great.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Arcand » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:29 pm

Sonic wrote:Gotta say I love the hammer fall idea. A rain of hammers comming down would be great.


I like the mass judgement idea, but the Judgement animation is one of the ones I like least.
In keeping with the holy warrior theme, my favorite animations look like attacks, or channeling
Light through a weapon - not the kind of thing a mage would do often, but exactly the kind of
magic you'd teach the 'orders militant'.

Hammer enhances the power of an ordinary weapon swing. Good.
Holy Shield charges your shield with Light. Good.
Holy Wrath suggests that you call up a surge of energy and throw it
out from your body in all directions; slightly more caster-like but
the uncontrolled element of it makes me like that too.

The old judgement, in Vanilla, I liked better (visually) because you
extended your hand at the target and they were struck by the spell. Fairly
simple, intuitive battle magic. The new one suggests that you call on some
higher power to do the zap for you and that doesn't fit my image as well.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Modal » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:32 pm

Sonic wrote:The CLANG! animation for HotR always gave the impression of it hitting hard. I think that's the main problem I have with CS as prot. Thw twist is alright but it doesn't have the power feel to it.


So you're saying you'd be all about CS and like, "Hey this is a signature prot ability don't you dare touch it!!1!!" if it made a clang sound?
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Sonic » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:00 pm

Modal wrote:
Sonic wrote:The CLANG! animation for HotR always gave the impression of it hitting hard. I think that's the main problem I have with CS as prot. Thw twist is alright but it doesn't have the power feel to it.


So you're saying you'd be all about CS and like, "Hey this is a signature prot ability don't you dare touch it!!1!!" if it made a clang sound?


So you like the holy nova HotR we have at the moment? Alot of skills have a feel to them. If it's not right then it's simply not right. Would it feel right if a fireball made a spashing wave sound instead of an explosion?

CS is just my personal feelings. I think it should have more umph seeing it's 1 of 2 weapon attacks we have.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Gideon » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:50 pm

Arcand wrote:The old judgement, in Vanilla, I liked better (visually) because you
extended your hand at the target and they were struck by the spell. Fairly
simple, intuitive battle magic. The new one suggests that you call on some
higher power to do the zap for you and that doesn't fit my image as well.


Assuming you don't mean faerie fire, agreed.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Lumennon » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:34 am

Sonic wrote:
Modal wrote:
Sonic wrote:The CLANG! animation for HotR always gave the impression of it hitting hard. I think that's the main problem I have with CS as prot. Thw twist is alright but it doesn't have the power feel to it.


So you're saying you'd be all about CS and like, "Hey this is a signature prot ability don't you dare touch it!!1!!" if it made a clang sound?


So you like the holy nova HotR we have at the moment? Alot of skills have a feel to them. If it's not right then it's simply not right. Would it feel right if a fireball made a spashing wave sound instead of an explosion?

CS is just my personal feelings. I think it should have more umph seeing it's 1 of 2 weapon attacks we have.

I agree. Someone with beta, PLEASE make a thread demanding the single most important element of Paladin tanking be added back to HotR - its CLANG? I like the Holy frying pan of Divine Righteous ZOMGWTFBBQ justice.

Pwetty pwease? :3

EDIT: About the animation however, I have to say I kinda like the idea of smashing a target so hard with me weapon that time and space on the point of impact just shatter and light radiates in all directions a little more than that tiny, bouncy hammer. ^^
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:55 am

I'm just curious, what would be a better investment for 3 points: Reckoning, Judgement of the Pure or Rule of Law.
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