Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Flex » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:31 am

Arianne wrote:969 is the perfect idea to me. You have your choice of abilities in which order you use them in, which you can tailor to different fights, but you have a guiding principle on how to use them.


lol wut

Shifting any time period sample in a parse will give a slightly different 969 order. There is no "choice" beyond the first button presses as the cooldowns dictate what you press next.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7508
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:52 am

I wont say that 969 offers choice, or interaction, but I will say that I thoroughly enjoyed the freedom it gave me to be more raid aware. That might have been a side effect of tanking longer, and being in more raids, but being able to do the rotation without paying attention to it, gave me more time to make sure that other things were happening in the raid.

I'm going to have to find a way to incorporate a proc watch into my UI for grand crusader, and learn the new ins and outs. Hopefully it isn't as dreadful as I fear.

Honestly, while the warrior tanking model was more engaging I found myself not enjoying as much because the rotation required more maintenance, and I felt like I was watching my bars more than I did on my paladin.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6394
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:02 am

After I set up runes and disease timers right in the middle of my screen by my character on my DK it didn't take long for me to start doing that rotation half-unconsciously, so I can see adapting to similar on my Paladin so long as I don't have to watch an out-of-the-way bar.

I guess you can argue that it's bad that that kind of setup is even necessary, though.
Temporarily playing WoW again.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 7088
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:14 am

Arianne wrote:Sure, paladins can be said to 'cast a 9 ability then a 6 ability', but you have to actually look at the abilities and at least think about it for a little while (set up your action bars in a good way) to get it going.

Not really. Once you've cast your third spell (9 - 6 - 9) you're locked into the static rotation. There's absolutely no thought involved from that point on, because there's only one possible spell to cast in each slot.

I agree that I'd rather see them keep 969 and tweak it slightly (say, dump Cons and HS from the single-target rotation, replace with CS, slip in AS with GC procs) than move to a Holy Power based system. But if you think that 969 is somehow not a priority system, then you're somewhat misguided. It's just a priority system with more spells than the Warrior version (and no filler spell, since we can fill every GCD without it).


Arianne wrote:IMO, all of those abilities are filler. The only one that I'm interested/excited in is ShoR. I also like AS. Judgement is filler in our current rotation (you only need to cast it once every 20s but you cast it once every 9 because you can). CS is Ret's attack that we're being made to use because of holy power being grafted onto the paladin class. HotR is destroyed. HS is destroyed. Consecration is destroyed. Our signature abilities are AS, HotR (clang!), HS, and Consecration. Not CS or judgement.


You're defining "filler" as "anything I don't like." That's not a useful definition.

Nor does it make much sense. Your rationale for Judgement being a filler spell is basically "we don't have anything better to cast in that slot." But that's true of Consecration and Holy Shield as well. What determines when a spell is "filler" and when it's a core ability?

Why is Judgement not one of our signature moves? It's been a Paladin signature move since release, and it's one of the few spells on your list we've always had in our toolkit.

I can understand the sentiment that by changing which spells we use, they're changing the way the class feels. But this isn't a new phenomenon - almost none of those abilities were part of the original class "flavor" from release. In fact, the only ones that existed back then were Holy Shield and Judgement. AS, CS, HotR were added afterwards, and Consecration started out as a Holy talent. Playing a paladin has changed "flavors" almost every expansion so far.

What matters in the end is not the names of the spells we use, but how they function and interact. It doesn't matter whether our hit-on-cooldown spell is called Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, or "Slap Them with a Fish." What matters is the cooldown, damage, and overall interaction with other spells that determines our rotation.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8028
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:17 am

Shoju wrote:Honestly, while the warrior tanking model was more engaging I found myself not enjoying as much because the rotation required more maintenance, and I felt like I was watching my bars more than I did on my paladin.

Why, out of curiosity, did it feel more maintenance-y? It pretty much boils down to "Hit Revenge or Shield Slam if available, refresh Tclap and Demo Shout if necessary, Devastate if there's nothing else to do." One or two Power Aura strings and a debuff timer is all it takes to make that work.

Admittedly, I like the fact that my UI is simpler on Theck. But I don't think it's that awful on my warrior either, even with PA set up to show Shockwave, Battle/Command Shouts, and a rage indicator for Heroic Strike.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8028
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Shathus » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:40 am

theckhd wrote:What matters in the end is not the names of the spells we use, but how they function and interact. It doesn't matter whether our hit-on-cooldown spell is called Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, or "Slap Them with a Fish." What matters is the cooldown, damage, and overall interaction with other spells that determines our rotation.


Holy Mackerel? I vote for this to be our filler ability.

Could be worse, I think tanking on my druid is pretty damn boring. Especially on AoE pulls. "well, guess i'll spam swipe now" HotR and swipe are basically the same thing now in the beta, aren't they? a move that hits everything in range on a short CD.

We're still different from DKs and Warriors in that we don't have to use other abilities to put up our debuffs (i think?), everything just comes from judgement, which will be in our rotation regardless. So overall we're still free to do more and not worry about maintaining things on the boss, especially now that we get HS put up for 'free' with SotR.
Shathus
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1466
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:02 pm

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Arianne » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:49 am

I agree that I'd rather see them keep 969 and tweak it slightly (say, dump Cons and HS from the single-target rotation, replace with CS, slip in AS with GC procs) than move to a Holy Power based system. But if you think that 969 is somehow not a priority system, then you're somewhat misguided. It's just a priority system with more spells than the Warrior version (and no filler spell, since we can fill every GCD without it).


I've underlined the important parts to me. I don't like hitting the same spell over and over again. I like having multiple things to use. I like having the choice of what spell to use when. When I'm tanking things, I try to make sure that I have ShoR up when an add is coming in (break rotation by using a cooldown/SS/Hand or timing AS then restart rotation). Do you need to do that? Not really (as shown by the paladins that macro their 969), but if they just extended the train of design that direction rather than making us crappy warriors, I'd be much happier.

--------------------------------------

CS feels wrong to me because Paladins are not Warriors. We're Guardians of the Light, not Weapons Masters. We use tank weapons. We attack things by channeling the Light. Judgement is a big hammer that comes from the sky. Hammer of the Righteous is a holy hammer that strikes our enemy and flies into two additional enemies. Consecration is holy ground that harms those of evil spirit. Avenger's Shield is a Shield projection made of the Light. Holy Shield is the Light imbuing us with the ability to withstand damage. ShoR isn't particularly 'Light' related, but it's awesome to be able to hit something with your shield and brings in the 'guardian' thing again.

Contrast that with Crusader Strike - hit something with your wimpy tank weapon.

Crusader Strike
5% of base mana Melee Range
Instant cast 4 sec cooldown
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that causes 75% weapon damage.

There's nothing Light based about it. It's fine for a Ret ability because they actually ARE attacking things with their weapon as well as with the Light. The Light helps Ret do more damage, but they are Holy Warriors, so one presumes they have some skill with weapons on their own. The Light helps Protection Paladins withstand damage.

If we got other abilities that were just 'hit things with your weapon', I'd be unhappy with those as well no matter what damage or cooldown they had.
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:58 am

CS feels wrong to me because Paladins are not Warriors. We're Guardians of the Light, not Weapons Masters. We use tank weapons. We attack things by channeling the Light. Judgement is a big hammer that comes from the sky. Hammer of the Righteous is a holy hammer that strikes our enemy and flies into two additional enemies. Consecration is holy ground that harms those of evil spirit. Avenger's Shield is a Shield projection made of the Light. Holy Shield is the Light imbuing us with the ability to withstand damage. ShoR isn't particularly 'Light' related, but it's awesome to be able to hit something with your shield and brings in the 'guardian' thing again.

Contrast that with Crusader Strike - hit something with your wimpy tank weapon.

Crusader Strike
5% of base mana Melee Range
Instant cast 4 sec cooldown
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that causes 75% weapon damage.

There's nothing Light based about it. It's fine for a Ret ability because they actually ARE attacking things with their weapon as well as with the Light. The Light helps Ret do more damage, but they are Holy Warriors, so one presumes they have some skill with weapons on their own. The Light helps Protection Paladins withstand damage.

If we got other abilities that were just 'hit things with your weapon', I'd be unhappy with those as well no matter what damage or cooldown they had.


I just straight up disagree. Paladins are supposed to be Warriors of the Light. Not, say, Masters of Arms like Warriors, but still up there in shining plate with giant swords/hammers/whatever beating people up. They are combat trained. As a Paladin, my weapon SHOULD hit hard. That's what it's for, not being a "wimpy tank weapon". Furthermore, Crusader Strike, or its namesake at least, was once a baseline Paladin spell. You can't just divorce the Prot Paladin from martial prowess like that. It's just wrong.

As I love to remind people, in Warcraft II, Paladins were *upgrades* to Knights. Turalyon smashed Orgrim Doomhammer's face in with the hilt of Lothar's sword. Please don't presume to dictate what a Paladin is when you forget the roots of the class like that.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10491
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:12 am

Arianne wrote:I've underlined the important parts to me. I don't like hitting the same spell over and over again. I like having multiple things to use. I like having the choice of what spell to use when. When I'm tanking things, I try to make sure that I have ShoR up when an add is coming in (break rotation by using a cooldown/SS/Hand or timing AS then restart rotation). Do you need to do that? Not really (as shown by the paladins that macro their 969), but if they just extended the train of design that direction rather than making us crappy warriors, I'd be much happier.


I understand that you don't like hitting the same spell over and over again. But nobody's saying we should do that.

For example, let's say they changed their minds tomorrow about everything. Everything's back to the way it is on live, except for:
-Consecration damage nerfed, so we don't use it on a single target
-Crusader Strike now available as a weak filler on a short cooldown (3s)
-Holy Shield auto-applied by ShoR
-AS is now a 9-second cooldown

So 969 now looks like:

J-HotR-AS-ShoR-?-HotR-J-ShoR-AS-HotR-?

If we put Crusader Strike into those ?'s as a "filler" spell, does that really count as "casting the same thing over and over again?" We still cast it less than ShoR and HotR. Even if AS had a longer cooldown, we'd never cast two CS's back to back - at best they'd be on either side of a 6-second ability.

Now look at the beta implementation:

CS-J-?-CS-HW-?-CS-J-ShoR-CS-AS-?

Admittedly, there are still a reasonable number of gaps in there, and I expect we'll get something else to fill them before things go live. But if they gave us a "spammable" filler spell, we'd rarely be casting it back-to-back. We might cast it half as often as CS once AS procs are taken into account, which means every 9 seconds or so. That hardly qualifies as "one ability we just spam."


If anything, the one ability we just spam now is CS due to Holy Power generation. I don't like it either, especially since it removes a lot of the flexibility we can achieve with 969, as you were describing. But unless they decide that Holy Power is just a bad mechanic for prot, I don't see that part changing.

Personally, I'd be OK with Holy Power if the gaps in-between were a little more regular. I liked the earlier implementation where HotR was an 8-second cooldown and not tied to CS. It gave us a nice regular rotation:

CS-J-X-CS-H-X-CS-J-ShoR-CS-H-X

ShoR goes in every 3rd X slot, the rest are filled with HoWra, AS procs, or whatever. It's actually pretty elegant.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8028
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:14 am

KysenMurrin wrote:After I set up runes and disease timers right in the middle of my screen by my character on my DK it didn't take long for me to start doing that rotation half-unconsciously, so I can see adapting to similar on my Paladin so long as I don't have to watch an out-of-the-way bar.

I guess you can argue that it's bad that that kind of setup is even necessary, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Blood DKs and Bears don't have any procs to watch either, right? I know Blood's sort of annoying in that it needs runes for defensive abilities once in a while, but I know that the blood dps rotation is just that, a 20(ish) second rotation that you could castsequence given enough character space. I don't see how 969 is much different than Blood and Feral on live.

That said, I haven't been following the new "Tank only" blood tree or how bears are shaping up in Cata yet. Do they have crazy procs to deal with too? Obviously Rage classes are "easier" to give fillers to because rage is a "limited" resource unlike mana, but is the new DK/Rune system leaving DK tanks with empty GCDs too?
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Modal » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:23 am

Shathus wrote:
theckhd wrote:"Slap Them with a Fish."


Holy Mackerel? I vote for this to be our filler ability.


I got my shaman dual fish maces a while back and when I'd duel people I made a macro I could push every time WF would proc to /yell FISHFURY!!!!
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Modal » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:27 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:but is the new DK/Rune system leaving DK tanks with empty GCDs too?


Yes, and they've been bitching about it longer and louder than we have.
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Arianne » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:30 am

Sabindeus wrote:I just straight up disagree. Paladins are supposed to be Warriors of the Light. Not, say, Masters of Arms like Warriors, but still up there in shining plate with giant swords/hammers/whatever beating people up. They are combat trained. As a Paladin, my weapon SHOULD hit hard. That's what it's for, not being a "wimpy tank weapon". Furthermore, Crusader Strike, or its namesake at least, was once a baseline Paladin spell. You can't just divorce the Prot Paladin from martial prowess like that. It's just wrong.

As I love to remind people, in Warcraft II, Paladins were *upgrades* to Knights. Turalyon smashed Orgrim Doomhammer's face in with the hilt of Lothar's sword. Please don't presume to dictate what a Paladin is when you forget the roots of the class like that.


"Although he was initially a priest, Turalyon is a skilled and fearsome warrior and can fight as well as any knight. He, like Lothar, is usually seen leading contingents of knights, smashing aside any foe with his warhammer and his aura, spreading encouragement to his own troops and fear into the hearts of his enemies. His determination and faith gives him enough strength to fight dozens of much larger orcs. A skilled tactician, Turalyon is known for his tactics of surprising enemy forces with fearsome charges of knights and foot soldiers while supporting them with arrow and magic."

Paladins are *upgrades* to Knights. Which means that they don't fight with merely physical weapons anymore. They fight with the strength and power of the Light. That's why we have the current Hammer (a hammer of the Light projecting outwards from the protection paladin). CS never made it out of the alpha/beta as a baseline ability. It's a Retribution ability. The Knights infused by the Light who focus on weapons go into Retribution (ie Uther). The Knights infused by the Light who focus on protecting/inspiring their armies go into Protection. The Knights infused by the Light who focus on Healing/Supporting their armies go into Holy.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
Last edited by Arianne on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:31 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Blood DKs and Bears don't have any procs to watch either, right? I know Blood's sort of annoying in that it needs runes for defensive abilities once in a while, but I know that the blood dps rotation is just that, a 20(ish) second rotation that you could castsequence given enough character space. I don't see how 969 is much different than Blood and Feral on live.

I actually play Frost on live, and even putting aside the procs Frost has, (without Epidemic, in my case) the rotation's more reactive than Blood's, and depends on which Runes are up and what your diseases are at, which is what I was meaning there.
Temporarily playing WoW again.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 7088
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Xish » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:33 am

Candiru wrote:Or make the animation an AoE judgement, so you see syncronised hammers falling from the sky on the enemies!


Did no one here play Dark Age of Camelot? Thane hammers? Best spell animation in that game!
Image

Oh, and those of you in Beta are linking these discussions when you make posts on the official beta forms right? This is easily the most active, thorough, and up-to-date prot paladin community currently. There is little reason why most of the mentioned points shouldn't be taken into consideration by the devs.

As an aside, I'm ok with change, but the fact that we will not be THE AoE tank (and as mentioned there will be near no AoE) is a bit of a bummer as that's why many people enjoyed the class. I suppose as long as we're unique in our own right and not warriors with just enough difference to not call us warriors, we'll all keep playing our paladins. I think that's what most of the community is fearing currently and expressing in their own ways.
Last edited by Xish on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Xish
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:57 am

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest