Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Steve » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:59 pm

Suffice it to say there's a notable opportunity cost when the pickup tools are part of the regular rotation. Whether or not that steps over the line will vary from encounter to encounter. Where the line is will vary from person to person. You won't get much useful discussion on it.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:24 pm

Arianne wrote:So the warrior rotation is looking a hell of a lot better than our 'rotation'.


I am curious if you even tank on a warrior. Warrior AoE is the baseline for other tanks in the new design and the Paladin rotation is very close. We have a not 100% uptime ground floor AOE, a shortcooldown AOE and a mid length cooldown AOE. We don't have the fillers but that is changed by just having things do more damage when they hit.

Warriors have a potential 100% uptime "ground floor" in rend spreading, but that doesn't help in preplacement, a short cooldown AOE with a longer cooldown than HotR and a medium cooldown. They have filler in cleave if rage permits and all beta reports that rage is screwy and Revenge if it procs, but then again that is limited to two targets.

Also I have never considered SoV DoT spreading a staple of Paladin AOE tanking.

I consider hitting a no-cooldown ability more than any other ability spamming it.


I don't, especially if you compare warriors to combat rogues.

Except I've already shown earlier in this post that they're not nerfing the balls out of all AoE, or at least not warrior's AoE.


Because they are the baseline of how they want it to work and warrior AOE tanking isn't exactly the tops to need specific nerfing.

AS has a 24s cooldown


24 second baseline, reduced to 15 through talents

edited to add

I don't consider the current 969 very fun and interactive. Holy Shield and Consecration are very dull abilities, so anything to get away from that I am all for. Plus I love relearning stuff, not only new content a completely new playstyle!

Yelena wrote: They don't want us using multi-target abilities in the single-target rotation


It is more that they don't want them to be the same. Thunderclap will be used in Warrior rotation for the attack speed slow and DKs will be using Blood Boil for the physical damage reduction. However on single targets the priority will be for debuff upkeep not threat maintainence. Since paladins have the debuff maintainence taken care of by primary attacks I don't see anything truly wrong with using aoe abilities on single targets.

One suggestion, which ties in with what Theck said at one point: Make CS spammable and remove the HP generation (via talent), revert 'Holy Nova of the Righteous' back to the Hammer of the Righteous we currently know it as


Except that's a nerf in every way isn't it removing the only low cooldown no target cap AOE from the toolkit?
Last edited by Flex on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Arianne » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:21 pm

If Paladins are turned into warriors then I'll probably quit this game. I don't want to play with a crappy priority system with a filler attack. I don't want a copy of Thunderclap. I don't want a copy of Devastate. You'd think they could come up with something more interesting than retrofiting a paladin into a warrior.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Dantriges » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:32 pm

I assume management wants to ship it as soon as possible and hm we want closely balanced tanks. So well, we wil probably look much the same. Replace rage and cracked ground with Holy Power and shiny golden glow for the difference

It porbably will be broken like hell in the fierst tiers, because they overlooked a few differences that turned into major issues.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Minarva » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:15 am

Beta is beta. We received so many changes each patch I can't see us shipping near this either.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:25 am

Flex wrote:
One suggestion, which ties in with what Theck said at one point: Make CS spammable and remove the HP generation (via talent), revert 'Holy Nova of the Righteous' back to the Hammer of the Righteous we currently know it as


Except that's a nerf in every way isn't it removing the only low cooldown no target cap AOE from the toolkit?

It's a nerf to AoE threat generation for sure, but it was a proposed fix for the single-target rotation. They'd obviously have to do something else to cover AoE threat.

I personally think the Hammer of Holy Nova model looks ridiculous, but it's functionally more useful in AoE situations than a 3-target cleave. That said, Hammer is pretty iconic for us too, I expect that there will be a lot of resistance to this change.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby trellian » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:37 am

Imho, the warrior 'Rend, then TC to spread' sounds to me a lot more like a copy of pestilence then a copy of a paladin ability. I don't see what the fuzz is about when talking about this.

And personally I really enjoy the warrior model. I wouldn't mind seeing a few things (like spammable CS) go over to paladins.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Candiru » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:47 am

Can't we get an unlimited number of hammer bounces rather than an AoE? It would look awesome to see it flying around a large pack of mobs!

Or make the animation an AoE judgement, so you see syncronised hammers falling from the sky on the enemies!
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:50 am

Arianne wrote:If Paladins are turned into warriors then I'll probably quit this game. I don't want to play with a crappy priority system with a filler attack. I don't want a copy of Thunderclap. I don't want a copy of Devastate. You'd think they could come up with something more interesting than retrofiting a paladin into a warrior.

We already have a "crappy priority system," we just lack the Devastate-esque filler attack because it isn't needed in 969. It just so happens that the cooldowns involved in our priority system make for a fairly simple and stable rotation.

Also keep in mind that in the current state of beta, we wouldn't end up spamming our filler attack. It would get cast about as often as CS for the most part, because we'll be mixing other abilities in:

CS-Jud-(filler)-CS-HoWra-(filler)-CS-Jud-ShoR-CS-(filler)-

And note that some of those (filler) spots will be filled with AS.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:54 am

Candiru wrote:Can't we get an unlimited number of hammer bounces rather than an AoE? It would look awesome to see it flying around a large pack of mobs!

This would certainly be cooler, though on large packs the first hammer might not stop bouncing before you cast another. :P It would be very Diablo II Hammerdin-esque though.

I'd actually rather have the current animation (bouncing to three targets with the current DING sound effect) and the beta implementation (AoE Holy Nova damage). Even though the animation wouldn't hit everything, it would be more aesthetically pleasing.

Or make the animation an AoE judgement, so you see syncronised hammers falling from the sky on the enemies!

This would make an awesome proc talent. "Hammer Drop - Your HotR has a 20%-50% chance to make your next Judgement hit all targets in the area."
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Chicken » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:00 am

I'm actually surprised they didn't just have a single hammer travel from the Paladin to the first target, with then a number of extra hammers appearing to bounce to all the other mobs hit. It's the same basic animation of the current version of the ability, but it doesn't suffer from issues with the bounces seeming to go on for extremely long with a lot of targets.

They might want to make only the first hammer make sound at that point though. I'm not sure if hearing the HotR sound a dozen times at once is something anyone would want.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:06 am

theckhd wrote:
Candiru wrote:Can't we get an unlimited number of hammer bounces rather than an AoE? It would look awesome to see it flying around a large pack of mobs!

This would certainly be cooler, though on large packs the first hammer might not stop bouncing before you cast another. :P It would be very Diablo II Hammerdin-esque though.

I'd actually rather have the current animation (bouncing to three targets with the current DING sound effect) and the beta implementation (AoE Holy Nova damage). Even though the animation wouldn't hit everything, it would be more aesthetically pleasing.

Or make the animation an AoE judgement, so you see syncronised hammers falling from the sky on the enemies!

This would make an awesome proc talent. "Hammer Drop - Your HotR has a 20%-50% chance to make your next Judgement hit all targets in the area."


First things that came to mind.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Arjuna » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:26 am

indeed, "hammertime" automatically came to mind...
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:51 am

Just use the Divine Storm animation imo.
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Re: Beta Build 12759 8/13/10

Postby Arianne » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:25 am

theckhd wrote:We already have a "crappy priority system," we just lack the Devastate-esque filler attack because it isn't needed in 969. It just so happens that the cooldowns involved in our priority system make for a fairly simple and stable rotation.


I like being able to use different abilities on each cooldown and with each ability having a place to use it in for optimal usage. If I hit HS -> HotR -> Cons -> Judge -> ShoR, that's different than hitting HS -> ShoR -> Judge. Sure, it's not VERY different in WotLK because you have to use your AoE abilities in the rotation, but I'm mortally opposed to spamming one ability. That's the reason I don't play a rogue. The reason I don't play a mage. The reason I don't play a prot warrior.

Do X, Y, or otherwise spam Z is not an interesting rotation to me. Cast 4x AB then cast AM if MB procs. That's arcane mage in one simple sentence. Put up a 3cp SnD then sinister strike until you get to 5 combo points and then use eviscerate. Cast SS if it's up, then Revenge if it's up, then Devastate if nothing else is up. Cast TC or DR if your debuffs are not present. BORING.

Sure, paladins can be said to 'cast a 9 ability then a 6 ability', but you have to actually look at the abilities and at least think about it for a little while (set up your action bars in a good way) to get it going.

969 is the perfect idea to me. You have your choice of abilities in which order you use them in, which you can tailor to different fights, but you have a guiding principle on how to use them. In my opinion they should have just added 3 additional AoE attacks and 3 additional ST attacks. Sure, if that makes each attack hit less, that's fine (as long as we still had some method of pulling ie: they left AS as it is in WoTLK). Make one of the abilities in each rotation generate holy power. Give one a chance to generate holy power. Make one or two of them use holy power for different effects. Make a proc that increases the threat of a different one. Then you have a choice of which to use in which situation without removing the overarching principle.

Also keep in mind that in the current state of beta, we wouldn't end up spamming our filler attack. It would get cast about as often as CS for the most part, because we'll be mixing other abilities in:

CS-Jud-(filler)-CS-HoWra-(filler)-CS-Jud-ShoR-CS-(filler)-

And note that some of those (filler) spots will be filled with AS.


IMO, all of those abilities are filler. The only one that I'm interested/excited in is ShoR. I also like AS. Judgement is filler in our current rotation (you only need to cast it once every 20s but you cast it once every 9 because you can). CS is Ret's attack that we're being made to use because of holy power being grafted onto the paladin class. HotR is destroyed. HS is destroyed. Consecration is destroyed. Our signature abilities are AS, HotR (clang!), HS, and Consecration. Not CS or judgement.
Last edited by Arianne on Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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