That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Chicken » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:30 am

Ryyu wrote:I don't know, I usually hate being the bad guy, but a renegade play though of Mass effect 2 has made me more open to the idea of evil.

I mean come on, name one Good guy who head-butts a sodding krogen.
A renegade playthrough of Mass Effect isn't really what I'd call evil though. In both cases you're a hero and a savior of the galaxy, the difference is mostly how far you want to go. The game also tends to make you more 'alien-loving' if you're playing as Paragon, while you're more of a 'human supremacist' as Renegade, but it's not really as simple as good vs. evil in the choices you make.

Well, barring a couple of things here and there.
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby sahiel » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:44 pm

Chicken wrote:
Ryyu wrote:I don't know, I usually hate being the bad guy, but a renegade play though of Mass effect 2 has made me more open to the idea of evil.

I mean come on, name one Good guy who head-butts a sodding krogen.
A renegade playthrough of Mass Effect isn't really what I'd call evil though. In both cases you're a hero and a savior of the galaxy, the difference is mostly how far you want to go. The game also tends to make you more 'alien-loving' if you're playing as Paragon, while you're more of a 'human supremacist' as Renegade, but it's not really as simple as good vs. evil in the choices you make.

Well, barring a couple of things here and there.

This pretty much. Bioware are excellent at giving you two moral paths but making neither of them strictly 'good' vs 'evil'. ME2 was more 'what lengths will you go to to ensure victory and at what cost', Paragons valued human life highly and tried their best to help people they met, Renegades valued getting the job done and were willing to sacrifice whatever was required to ensure it would be.

Another excellent example is Jade Empire by them, you had the Path of the Open Palm vs Way of the Closed Fist, two martial arts styles and moral paths, whilst Closed Fist certainly valued strength and could be mistaken for 'evil' it was far from in in reality and instead valued decisive action, emotions and risk taking vs a more calm, intellectual and diplomatic view that open palm had.
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Jonlo » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:31 pm

Dehn wrote:I'm surprised that there isn't more succumbing to the temptation of destruction after all disasters that keep piling up on Azeroth.

I mean, if I had been my dwarf paladin, slaying all these evil threats for so long, I'd definitely had thought.. "It is futile to fight against chaos, its the natural state".. And considering the Burning Legion is a bit anti-dwarf in their recruitment schemes, the Twilight cultists looks like an attractive option.


That's how Sargeras started the Burning Legion in a nutshell, cept it was universe wide, instead of just Azeroth.
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Thornir » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:58 pm

Yeah, technically I wouldn't really say I would ever turn "evil", more like Chaotic Neutral.
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:26 am

Thornir wrote:Yeah, technically I wouldn't really say I would ever turn "evil", more like Chaotic Neutral.


I've always liked Chaotic over Lawful in D&D (with some exceptions, ie. Monks) and while I've played "evil" characters before, a lot of times it boils down to "necessary" evils vs. pure "take over/destroy the world" evil.

And perception is key when determining good vs. evil... on first glance, most people see Alliance as "good" and Horde as "evil" but if you actually play through the quests, you can see it's very gray (my friend would argue Horde is usually more honorable/accepting than Alliance, therefore would be more "good.")
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Ryyu » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:32 am

Chicken wrote:but it's not really as simple as good vs. evil in the choices you make.

Well, barring a couple of things here and there.


Saying "Evil" is just faster than "Still technically a good guy, but with zero morals, a tendency to shoot people who annoy/slowdown/be near them, bigoted against anything that not human/aliens they can have sex with and at one point MIGHT have had a mentally damaged escaped slave shot with a sniper rifle so they can take off in there space ship a few minuets faster." Still, the good guys DO get to punch Deathwing in the face at one point.

Any Guesses on the 4th member of the Twilight council? As nice as this lore is, I'm terrified it will become another god awful council style fight. I still wake up in a cold sweat Screaming "I MOVED OUT THE BLIZZARD INTO A FLAME STIKE"
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:13 am

Well, I know Millhouse Manastorm is going to be a high ranking member of the Twilight Hammer cult
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Ryyu » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:05 am

Klaudandus wrote:Well, I know Millhouse Manastorm is going to be a high ranking member of the Twilight Hammer cult



Apparently there are 4 members of the new twilight council (info is from mmochamp forums so take with a MASSIVE grain of salt) 3 have been found, last ones unknown.

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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:29 am

Ryyu wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Well, I know Millhouse Manastorm is going to be a high ranking member of the Twilight Hammer cult



Apparently there are 4 members of the new twilight council (info is from mmochamp forums so take with a MASSIVE grain of salt) 3 have been found, last ones unknown.

MY BET IS SAURFANG


I'd die if that's the case -- I'm betting on another neutral party to both factions.
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:41 am

I was honestly hoping that Cata would see more involvement of the Sin'dorei. Maybe Rommath being a traitor will be the kick to get more face time for Lorthemar Theron.

WTB Lor'themar without a shield and looking more like a ranger general.
WTB more cool things happening in Silvermoon
WTB just more in game stuff that makes BE's relevant and not such a waste of space.
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:16 am

Shoju wrote:I was honestly hoping that Cata would see more involvement of the Sin'dorei. Maybe Rommath being a traitor will be the kick to get more face time for Lorthemar Theron.

WTB Lor'themar without a shield and looking more like a ranger general.
WTB more cool things happening in Silvermoon
WTB just more in game stuff that makes BE's relevant and not such a waste of space.


WTB more in game stuff that makes Draenei relevant.
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Flex » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:31 am

Sabindeus wrote:WTB more in game stuff that makes Draenei relevant.


The Waggle is more than enough. rawr.
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:46 am

Shoju wrote:I was honestly hoping that Cata would see more involvement of the Sin'dorei. Maybe Rommath being a traitor will be the kick to get more face time for Lorthemar Theron.

WTB Lor'themar without a shield and looking more like a ranger general.
WTB more cool things happening in Silvermoon
WTB just more in game stuff that makes BE's relevant and not such a waste of space.


THIS. Heck, at least Tyrandee has a unique voice. Poor Lor'themar can't even be drawn properly by the official blizzard artists -- They forgot he only has one eye!
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:00 pm

I like the idea that they are going with certain things as far as conflict.

NE vs Forsaken (over the worgen)
Orcs vs Hoomans (duh)


We need MOAR FITE! We need the Draenei to not be so shut off from the rest of the world, and have them square off with a horde race that IS NOT the Sin'Dorei. We need the elves to sqaure off with an alliance race that isn't the goats as well.

What if we had the goats vs the cows over something? They are both Kalimdor based, and there is that absolutely awesome looking part of desolace that you can't get to that buts up against Mulgore. What if the Draenei found something there, and were encroaching on Tauren territory? What if it was supposed to be the Alliance's way around the new great gate, and the Draenei were angry that sunwalker moos were mooing their light at the sun instead of the naaru?

What if we had BE vs Gnome tension? make the newnorth lordaeron zone some Thalassian ruins that the explorer's league found and the elves want it back?

These are simplistic tensions that could be introduced in the new zones that would give the races not in the 'forefront' of the wow story some face time.
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Re: That Traitorous Bastard (Lore Spoiler)

Postby Jonlo » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:14 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Well, I know Millhouse Manastorm is going to be a high ranking member of the Twilight Hammer cult



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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