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beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Fenris » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:30 pm

We just didn't like the direction we were heading where every tank had an ability to guarantee that incoming adds would head right for them, and every tank had an ability to do reflective damage that had literally no decision or skill on the part of the tank to employ.

Use your Consecrates, Shockwaves, Swipes and Death and Decay when they would have the most impact, not on cooldown. Get adds to stick to you because you use abilities at the right time, not because once a mob hits you, you generate free threat.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Sonic » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:36 pm

Condicering the massive amount of damage boosts we are getting in other areas I can take the hit to reflective damage. It was only good vs melee anyway. I doubt ret aura will be removed though. They'd have to take away thorns and fire shield also.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:44 pm

Looking at the tooltip it doesn't really surprise me that Shield of Righteousness is broken on beta atm. It's got the previous damage level with a "for each stack of Holy Power" just tacked onto the tooltip, rather than having been fully updated. It's also on the "press HS then refresh with ShoR" model which they abandoned quickly in favour of "ShoR applies HS". The prot snapshot in this build was obviously in a state where they'd put the stuff in place but hadn't started making it work yet.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby d503 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:53 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Looking at the tooltip it doesn't really surprise me that Shield of Righteousness is broken on beta atm. It's got the previous damage level with a "for each stack of Holy Power" just tacked onto the tooltip, rather than having been fully updated. It's also on the "press HS then refresh with ShoR" model which they abandoned quickly in favour of "ShoR applies HS". The prot snapshot in this build was obviously in a state where they'd put the stuff in place but hadn't started making it work yet.


Not to mention that ShoR still has the wrong name...really bugs me when people call it Shield of the Righteous...
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Playdoh » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:54 pm

but they have changed holy wrath to no longer have a decreased CD. I am wondering if they are going to leave the glyph of holy wrath in.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Gaffer » Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:19 pm

I'm getting a little concerned that each patch has been taking us further and further away from being able to fill all of our globals with abilities (this time with the Shield of the Templar). Short of spamming 1 point Shield of the Righteous, we're left with a lot of doing nothing.

Also, gogo talents being implemented but untrainable.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Treck » Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:38 pm

Gaffer wrote:I'm getting a little concerned that each patch has been taking us further and further away from being able to fill all of our globals with abilities (this time with the Shield of the Templar). Short of spamming 1 point Shield of the Righteous, we're left with a lot of doing nothing.

This IS blizzards goal with all classes, for those who havnt figured that out allready.

They WANT us to have dead GCDs in each "rotation" in order to use other more rare spells that are situation and not really part of your tunnelvision rotation that in some way or form helps the raid.
So that dpsers can use spells like bop/bosac/rebuffing or whatever within their "rotation".
I sure does hate sometimes when i have to sacrifice a GCD to use DS/DG even if its a well spent GCD, imagine the dpsers when they are asked to use those spells to help out the raid.
Im not talking about TBC prot tanking, back then we didnt have much to spend those GCDs on.
Blizzard want people to have the ability to use their GCDs, but they want the gaps in the normal rotation so that people actually bother using their "dead" GCDs on something that isnt only based on their own personal dps.
Say smth like 2 "dead" GCDs each 10sec rotation seems resonable.
And we sure have or will have sufficient spells and abilities to use those GCDs even if those arnt part of our usual rotation.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arianne » Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:51 pm

Having nothing to do for several seconds is not fun. It's not engaging. It's not exciting. It's not challenging. Skill is about how you break your rotation to use utility abilities and about being able to do your rotation while paying attention to the situation around you.

Having 2 GCDs empty in a 10s rotation means that you have 2*6 = 12 GCDs empty in a minute. What are you going to use there? HoF is on a 25s cooldown (15s talented). HoP is on a 5 minute cooldown (3 min talented). HoSalv is on a 2 minute cooldown. HoSac is on a 2 min cooldown. DG is a 2 min cooldown. Those abilites are not going to fill your spare GCDs.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Minarva » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:44 pm

Im actually fairly sure the deadtime we have is not intended. The iteration has a long way to go, especially as other tanks still don't have deadtime issues (especially warriors, with devastate being an excellent filler). ShoR is looking a bit more lame than we thought anyway:

Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage. Consumes all applications of Holy Power to determine damage dealt:

1 Holy Power: 30% Attack Power
2 Holy Power: 60% Attack Power
3 Holy Power: 90% Attack Power


It's not going to be the mega huge hit that we thought, although should still hit harder than shield slam at 3 HP. Although the scaling is linear, I think a 1 or 2 HP ShoR might be a waste (unless its the only way to solve deadtime - working out the best rotation is going to be a b***h).
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Marblehead » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:52 pm

Actually, with linear scaling like that, it doesn't matter how many HoPo we have when we hit ShoR. We'll want to hit it on cd.

If you hit ShoR every 3 HoPo, you get something like this: CS x x CS x x CS ShoR x (repeat)
This results in one ShoR with 3 HoPo, meaning 90%*AP

If you hit ShoR on cd, prioritizing CS, you get something like this: CS x ShoR CS x x CS ShoR x (repeat)
This results in one ShoR with 1 HoPo and one ShoR with 2 HoPo, meaning 30%*AP+60%*AP=90%*AP , which is exactly the same as before, only now you filled more GCDs.

(Hitting ShoR on cd, prioritizing it over CS, is clearly a tps loss)

Also, if in the future we get something else beside CS, that gives us HoPo, it would make hitting ShoR on cd even more attractive. The only reason for using an ability only at 3 HoPo is for that ability to scale non-linearly, giving larger rewards with more HoPo.

Anyway, the only thing they achieved with that is that they took away HotR and HS, which were filling 5 GCDs every 27 seconds (6 CS), and replaced them with ShoR, which fills 4 GCDs during the same time period. Combining that with the longer AS cd (in case it doesn't proc), they just created more holes in our rotation.

And all the above with the assumption that ShoR refreshes HS at full power with any amount of HoPo.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Loras » Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:20 pm

d503 wrote:
obeyfez wrote:Another beta build another week I ignore the beta. I'm primarily interested in testing my prot pally in the beta and giving feedback to Blizz on all the new abilities. And while I am thankful to have received a beta invite in the first round, thus far it has gone unused (other than flying to all those gryphon-taxi fly-over places in the new old world - fun!). I want to save the surprise of goblin and worgen leveling and the new 80-85 zones and dungeons for when it goes live, so testing that just isn't for me. This isn't qq, just wish I could test my pally without things being broke or NYI. Looking forward to a time (hopefully in the near future) when things are more test-ready.


You realize that your equivalent of "beta testing" is about the same as reading patch notes, using wowtal, watching videos, and providing feedback on the forums?

I'm not saying I'm happy with the state of Prot at the moment (I'm happy with the promise of it, for sure, but skill learning bugs ftl), but the first thing I did in Alpha was level a goblin up so I can help them with those quest areas, file bugs, and be a meaningful part of the testing process. A tremendous amount of work is going in redesigning old zones, and lots of testing is needed to uncover the bugs therein. Even if it means taking your level 80 over there and beating up the quests, you can provide some good feedback.

If you're just waiting for things to get to "live" levels of stability, your beta account's not gonna have very much played time. Things are test-ready at the moment, you just have to be willing to deal with some bullshit for a little bit ;)


That's a terrible terrible argument. Just because you are so desperate to try Goblin areas and experience doesn't mean that the beta is all about it and nothing else. How do you contribute to the class feedback? You don't. So you're just as "useless" as the guy you're accusing. Class feedback is just as important as everything else, and he has the full right to want to do that and test it. This is "Cataclysm beta", not "Starting zones beta", why do you think that everything is centered only around those starting zones? He can pretty much try the new abilities on a Target dummy or on old lvl 80 stuff too.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby d503 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:41 pm

Loras wrote:That's a terrible terrible argument. Just because you are so desperate to try Goblin areas and experience doesn't mean that the beta is all about it and nothing else. How do you contribute to the class feedback? You don't. So you're just as "useless" as the guy you're accusing. Class feedback is just as important as everything else, and he has the full right to want to do that and test it. This is "Cataclysm beta", not "Starting zones beta", why do you think that everything is centered only around those starting zones? He can pretty much try the new abilities on a Target dummy or on old lvl 80 stuff too.


You're focusing too much on comments about starting zones. Not being able to learn ShoR and basically completely ignoring the beta for a week is being a bad tester, since there are plenty of other things you can test and provide feedback on while you wait for them to fix Paladins. But it's ok, b/c there are plenty of people in beta being bad testers, amirite?

Also, I contribute plenty of class feedback by testing things in game and posting on the beta boards, so don't be a douche just to be a douche...
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Lumidar » Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:18 pm

Marblehead wrote:Actually, with linear scaling like that, it doesn't matter how many HoPo we have when we hit ShoR. We'll want to hit it on cd.

If you hit ShoR every 3 HoPo, you get something like this: CS x x CS x x CS ShoR x (repeat)
This results in one ShoR with 3 HoPo, meaning 90%*AP

If you hit ShoR on cd, prioritizing CS, you get something like this: CS x ShoR CS x x CS ShoR x (repeat)
This results in one ShoR with 1 HoPo and one ShoR with 2 HoPo, meaning 30%*AP+60%*AP=90%*AP , which is exactly the same as before, only now you filled more GCDs.

(Hitting ShoR on cd, prioritizing it over CS, is clearly a tps loss)


it's actually mroe than a TPS loss. the better way is to sustain a 2HoPo rotation. here is the comparison of the 2:
Image

the black lines are GCDs , the question marks at the top are the GCDs that are currently unused, and the numbers at the bottom are the amount of Holy Power used when casting ShoR. if you try and fit in more ShoR it does no increase in ShoR damage but over a 1minute rotation you lose 1 GCD and also lose 1 Judgement.

the first rotation in my picture is what you should be considering so far while fitting Avenger's Shield in the blanks whenever Grand Crusader procs.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Marblehead » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:04 pm

Lumidar wrote:it's actually mroe than a TPS loss. the better way is to sustain a 2HoPo rotation. here is the comparison of the 2:
<graph>

the black lines are GCDs , the question marks at the top are the GCDs that are currently unused, and the numbers at the bottom are the amount of Holy Power used when casting ShoR. if you try and fit in more ShoR it does no increase in ShoR damage but over a 1minute rotation you lose 1 GCD and also lose 1 Judgement.

the first rotation in my picture is what you should be considering so far while fitting Avenger's Shield in the blanks whenever Grand Crusader procs.

Your 1st rotation is based on CS>J>ShoR , i.e CS J ShoR CS x x (repeat) (6 GCDs)
Your 2nd rotation is based on CS>ShoR>J , i.e CS ShoR J CS x ShoR CS x J CS ShoR x CS x ShoR CS J x CS ShoR x CS J ShoR CS x x (repeat) (27 GCDs)

So, at 54 GCDs, the 1st rotation fits 9 times and the 2nd 2 times. That equals:
1st rotation: 18xCS, 9xJ, 9xShoR
2nd rotation: 18xCS, 8xJ, 12xShoR

The 2nd rotation provides more TPS, obviously. One less Judgement shouldn't be a problem, since it lasts 20 seconds and JotJ won't be falling off. That means that ShoR>J is a better choice than J>ShoR. At the moment, our most efficient rotation seems to be based on CS>ShoR>AS>J>HW>Cons , most probably.


Edit: Again, we speak under the assumption that an 1-HoPo ShoR will refresh a 15% HS. Bear that in mind.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:55 pm

It won't. GC posted the text of Holy Shield as "Your Shield of the Righteous hits increase your block chance by 5% per stack of Holy Power consumed. Lasts 20 sec."

That there's your incentive to always wait for 3HP. He also said if you want burst threat use AS, not ShoR.
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