beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

[Flitter]

The only issue i have with 3 HP vrs a 1 or 2 method comes down to the fact we are stacking a ton of threat on a single move to dodge/parried/missed. Sure we keep holy shield it may make our threat more spikier.

Actually you'll miss "only" a GCD and just hit ShoR again. I can't imagine that a missed/parried/dodged/etc ShoR will consume HP. Rogues don't lose their CPs either.

[mclem]

Charge and Intervene are not usually encounter swinging.

I disagree, having seen a great many warriors charge into a boss and then get flattened as the healers couldn't keep up.

Hey, you didn't say which *way* they'd swing the encounters!

[mclem]

Just a germ of an idea which might fill a GCD (optionally), give us a bit more flavour and mix up the rotation a bit:

HoSac tweaked (prot talent? Feels natural bolted onto DivSac), to:
Have no cooldown
Does not work on self-inflicted damage (is that already true for HoSac?)
Duration reduced a little (not much, it's already quite low - 4s?) to reduce rolling
Damage diverted to you is reduced a bit, so it's not likely to kill you (is this actually necessary? I've never really felt threatened by HoSac damage)
If damage is diverted to you, gain 1 HP. 10s CD on this effect


I like this basic idea - obviously the numbers need to be tweaked, they're just estimates - because it serves to cement the occasionally-mentioned "raid protector" role while also *rewarding* us for playing that role.

[sherck]

Charge and Intervene are not usually encounter swinging.

I disagree, having seen a great many warriors charge into a boss and then get flattened as the healers couldn't keep up.

Hey, you didn't say which *way* they'd swing the encounters!

Lol, reminds me of my first time ever pulling Onyxia-25 as a level 80. Raid was stacked with Shaman and Priest healers (with me along as the tank healer) so there were not many preventive buffs on the MT (SS, ES, PW:S, PoM, Renew is about it).

Raid Leaders does ready check, tells the MT to pull and the MT charges in and keeps running to the back wall with the boss in tow. I am running, out of range, running out of range, running, in range, Holy Shock, dead MT.

OT picked up and a DPS druid did a battle rez and we went on to save the day but it was funny as heck to see the 45k MT drop dead in the first 5 or 6 seconds of the encounter and hear him on Vent cursing at the healers.

Cheers,

[dmok]

<3 means 2 will hit weaker than live


do we know if they are going to fix what applies seal of truth? says single target applications will apply but its still just applying with autoswings

With the current implementation, I don't feel like ShoR has to hit like a truck at 3HoPo to be worthwile. Afterall, it also procs holy Shield at 15% block. AS would be our hard-hitting ability, ShoR a more distant 2nd, and then lots of other abilities just below it

[Rasmfrackn]

It has to be more attractive for single-target damage/threat than just keeping up inquisition, though, or else it won't have any use at all since they both keep up holy shield.

[Flex]

so GC said shield slam will hit like a truck, but now is saying if it doesnt have 3 stacks it will hit less than it does live? sounds like its not hitting like a truck to me... MEH, so now we have holy power just for shield slam, sounds rather weak to me, why give paladins all this new stuff just for ret, and prot and holy get penalized for being paladins?

It can mean two things:
Less than it does now on beta or less than it does now on live

[Flex]

I thought they were changing warriors so they got most of their rage from hitting things rather than being hit? I don't have a warrior though, so maybe I'm wrong.

Warriors gain rage from auto-atatcks and spend it on specials. They are only ever hitting one thing.

I'm worried about pick up of new adds. We have 2 abilities on a long cooldown (AS, Cons), one ability on a medium cooldown (HW), and one ability on a short cooldown (HotR). Warriors have 3 short cooldowns (cleave, revenge, thunder clap) and one long cooldown (shockwave). We both have taunt, but warriors have challenging shout and heroic throw as well. I think mocking blow is gone though?

So…how is it that much different than it is currently? In fact we gain an extra pickup ability that we have wished for for a while, something burstyish.

I'll bet you $1 that our pick up ability will be fine and comparable to the current warrior, which they are basing their AoE tanking mechanics around. Pity the poor druids that get a 6 second cooldown on swipe.

[Klaudandus]

I finally get chance to catch up to all that's been happening the last 5 days -- I have to say that I like the latest intentions in the design, tho, like GC said, we might either see 'em in beta in 1 or 2 builds, or make more changes, but I do feel it's a change in the right direction -- at least better than the previous iterations

[Gideon]

so GC said shield slam will hit like a truck, but now is saying if it doesnt have 3 stacks it will hit less than it does live? sounds like its not hitting like a truck to me... MEH, so now we have holy power just for shield slam, sounds rather weak to me, why give paladins all this new stuff just for ret, and prot and holy get penalized for being paladins?

It can mean two things:
Less than it does now on beta or less than it does now on live

What's it hitting for on beta? Data not available AFAIK.

Edit: Though I'd say there's no point complaining yet. Mechanics first, numbers later.

[Sabindeus]

so GC said shield slam will hit like a truck, but now is saying if it doesnt have 3 stacks it will hit less than it does live? sounds like its not hitting like a truck to me... MEH, so now we have holy power just for shield slam, sounds rather weak to me, why give paladins all this new stuff just for ret, and prot and holy get penalized for being paladins?

It can mean two things:
Less than it does now on beta or less than it does now on live

What's it hitting for on beta? Data not available AFAIK.

Edit: Though I'd say there's no point complaining yet. Mechanics first, numbers later.

Yeah it's not on beta.

[xstratax]

Why dont they just make AS grant 2 HoPow? It makes the initial ramp up time shorter, as well as gives us an extra source of HoPow (which may not be needed in the coming builds, who knows). The long CD and infrequent refresh via the GC Proc would give us a very stable yet increased income compared to how it is now, and since GC is still a proc it means the stable income is also unpredictable enough to be interesting.

Also I agree with many of you, they are taking much of what makes a Prot Paladin a Paladin, and offering nothing but headaches and handwaving dismissals in response. Gameplay is very important, but so is engaging the player with flavor/lore/choice. The directions so far do not engage, and do not offer much choice between Warrior and Paladin, other than graphics and resource.

[Minarva]

I have to disagree. I found the latest builds to be horrible to play, holy shield felt very maintenance-like and we were left with far too many free GCDs. With the intended design, I can find myself using holy power for WoG self shields aswell as HS, definitely giving an aspect of skill towards the class and something more enjoyable. I think we still lack one filler-like ability, I really dislike the fact we could have several free GCDs. With a proper filler, we might finally not drop consecrate for single target fights (which I believe is one of their aims) - currently its still being used because our GCDs are just empty. I really don't care how similar we are to the warrior, at the end of the day, we are still using pretty much the same abilities as on live so the sudden fear of being a warrior seems a tad out of proportion to me. I have a warrior tank as well on beta, and the two feel very different (aside from the fact that warrior tanks are hugely overpowered on beta last time I looked).

[Gaffer]

I have to disagree. I found the latest builds to be horrible to play, holy shield felt very maintenance-like

It's very "maintenance-like" right now. In fact, you're on an even tighter constraint of how often you have to refresh it then you are in the current beta build (except Shield of Righteousness isn't implemented). I'm not sure what people expect from Holy Shield, but it is going to require maintenance.

[Minarva]

I was referring to the changes mentioned by GC, HS is in no way more difficult to maintain in the upcoming build than on live, all you need is 1 stack of shor or IQ and you have your full duration HS.