beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:50 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:I think it'd be their intent to make it our hardest hitting ability. Currently (without glyphed holy wrath anyway), AS seems to be doing more damage over time than any other single ability. If you're holding AS to pick up adds, you're losing probably 20-30% of your tps.


I don't actually think this is true, even in our broken ass build right now without ShoR?
[/quote]
Eh, HotR is probably slightly higher, but everything else is pretty weak.

As I recall, AS is 7.8-8k for me. HotR is 3.5k, and holy wrath is 2.7k. Judgement is 1k, CS is ~900, white hits are 450ish.

In a 20 second period (1 AS), I'll get 2.5 HotRs, 5 CSs, 2 judgements, and like 12 or 13 white hits. I think SoV is ticking around 680 at 5, and proccing for 350. So... I guess in that sense our auto-attacks are the largest contribution over time.

I'm assuming ShoR will be a hard hitter every 12 seconds (assuming we're doing 3-stacks for holy shield but need to blow HoPo on ShoR for threat instead of heals... if you want heals, you don't even get this ability for damage anyway), so it will probably end up as a larger contribution than AS. HotR is a little stronger, but not by much. I don't have a way of maxing out my vengeance stack, so different things may scale differently.

Now, if you assume an extra 25% of AS (i think that's about the contribution from grand crusader), then AS is back on top of 2.5 HotRs. Melee + SoV ticks + SoV procs is still slightly stronger if you add those together and call them "autoattack damage".
[/quote]

Yeah I don't see that being 20-30% of our TPS.

Sabindeus wrote:Well in this particular case, where the current build is literally broken I don't think that waiting and seeing is unreasonable.

So what's the point of this whole thread? :)

Letting people know how broken it is, clearly. Read the first two pages! (Why it got to be more pages I have no idea!)

This is the first build I've actually played in, and it's not non-functional broken... I just don't have ShoR. I get to dump HoPo into HS directly or WoG, I'm talented, my abilities do damage in some proportion that seems like what blizzard has stated they're shooting for (see: AS is supposed to be a hard-hitter for our single-target rotation, and it is.)


When I have talents that do nothing and can't be specced into, I call that broken. Given the difference between what GC has been talking about and what is actually in the build in terms of Holy Shield and ShoR, I don't think commentary about the relative contribution of TPS of AS based on this build will be relevant in the future. Yes, it hits hard and is intended to hit hard, but I don't believe you can claim it makes up so much of our TPS so that we are unable to save it for adds or lose aggro.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arianne » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:00 pm

Chicken wrote:In regards to procs and what not, and continuing on my theme of 'unpredictable but does not require immediate reaction' from before, I was thinking of a new variation of 'cooldown reset' procs like Grand Crusader [GC]. Currently these kind of procs basically require immediate reaction to them, due to the simple fact that they proc some of the more powerful abilities of the class they're from. But what if instead such a proc gave you a buff that allowed you to just ignore the cooldown and cast the spell, while the cooldown continues on ticking normally.

So for GC for instance, we'd simply get a fancy buff that lasts for, say, 10 seconds when it procs. This buff allows us to use Avenger's Shield [AS] while it's on cooldown, and without triggering the cooldown. So imagine you get the proc 15 seconds before AS is ready, but you wait a further 6 seconds before using it. In this implementation, your AS will be normally available in 9 seconds from that point. And if you have the buff while AS is ready to be used? Well, you can just throw two ASs in a row.

It basically achieves the same thing as the cooldown reset does (Allow an extra use of AS), but it's less 'punishing' if you delay using it for a while. The proc rate might need some adjusting since a system like this does lead to more ASs on average, but it's a bit less punishing and also allows a bit more flexibility in the ability use. And you can still 'waste' the proc if you happen to proc it a second time if you left your buff up. It just doesn't require immediate response nearly as much as a full on cooldown reset does.


Yes, this would be better than the current implementation of GC, but I doubt they have the tech to do it. It also is somewhat complicated to explain on a tooltip.

Grand Crusader
Requires 1 point in Hammer of the Righteous
Requires 15 points in Protection talents

When your Crusader Strike deals damage, you have a 20% chance of gaining Grand Crusader, which allows you to cast Avenger's Shield immediately without resetting the cooldown of Avenger's Shield.

Is that understandable?
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Steve » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:19 pm

Procs like these give you an opportunity to leverage game skill, but how much game skill do you really want the game to leverage?

The skilled would say they want more of these opportunities. The unskilled would likely not have much of an opinion (since they probably don't think of the game in this way, else they'd be more skilled) until they couldn't play effectively.

Personally if I were Blizzard I'd try and concentrate on the game design elements that create variations in performance that have nothing to do with skill (e.g. the impact of latency) before I considered these issues. It's obviously an important question, though.

Obviously the less variation in skill there is, the easier the game is to tune. But if leveling the playing field is done by creating less opportunity to leverage skill, then the game is probably less interesting to play as a result. It's a fine line.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby d503 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:30 pm

Arianne wrote:
Vengeance is going to make tank swaps tricky (your DPS are generating threat at 8k per second, the old tank is generating at 9k per second, the new tank gets set to the old tank's threat and then generates 6k per second because they don't have any Vengeance stacks so your old tank and/or your DPS catch up and pass unless every tank has a way to put out huge burst threat that can cover until their Vengeance stacks catch up).


In my experience tanking dungeons in alpha/beta, Vengeance stacks up REALLY quickly.

A couple of answers will make this either a concern or trivial:

- Is Vengeance considering the incoming damage before armor/mitigation (will stack much quicker)?
- Will Vengeance be refreshed with environmental AoE damage?
- Will tanks have enough of an initial lead on the DPS that the time it takes to stack it to 10% is negligible?

It would be kinda cool if there was an ability in the game to transfer your Vengeance buff...I'm sure something like that would be exploited right away tho :(
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arincia » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:50 pm

Bleh wrong post in wrong thread.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:26 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Yeah I don't see that being 20-30% of our TPS.

Er... it's almost exactly 20% of all the damage I can produce in 20 seconds. Up to 25% or so with GC procs, minus however much Vengeance/AP scales other things better than it. I just pulled all those numbers from in-game.

Once we have ShoR, then no it'll probably be 15% or so of our TPS.

-- I don't know the best way to format a spreadsheet into a post, but here are the %s, roughly speaking:
19.70% AS
6.89% Judge
12.31% CS
8.92% HW
21.54% HotR
11.11% SoV ticks
8.44% SoV procs
11.08% autoattack
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Shathus » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:12 pm

Ghostcrawler wrote:Here is the current design we have in our local builds. It might not appear in the next beta build, but could be the one after that. There's also a chance we will have changed it again before you get a chance to try it.

Holy Shield is a 15% block buff with a 20 sec duration. It no longer has stacks and can be overwritten to refresh its duration. It is caused by both Shield of the Righteous and Inquisition. You can Crusader Strike -> Shield of the Righteous over and over if you'd like, but the Shield of the Righteous will hit for much less without 3 stacks (it will hit softer with <3 stacks than it does today, more like TV does in the beta). Likewise, Inquisition will fall off pretty quickly without 3 stacks (with 3 stacks it lasts 15 sec for Prot and 30 sec for Ret), so there is some motivation to go for the longer buff.

The idea is that you can use Shield of the Righteous for single targets or use Inquisition to buff a larger variety of abilities when AE tanking. Furthermore, if you ever let Holy Shield drop off, you should be able to get it back up pretty quickly at full strength.

There is a chance we will allow Word of Glory to also proc Holy Shield, but we're very concerned about the right way to play becoming to just spam heals on yourself. We still don't want you to have to keep up both Inquisition and a 3 stack Shield of the Righteous at once, because we think that crosses the line into being too maintenance-y, and once you can do it, you'll feel like you have to do it.


Sounds like some changes for the better in an upcoming build. Hopefully ShoR will be talentable by then :)
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Loras » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:03 pm

Ok, now that sounds a LOT better, definitely a step in the right direction.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby steadypal » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:04 pm

so GC said shield slam will hit like a truck, but now is saying if it doesnt have 3 stacks it will hit less than it does live? sounds like its not hitting like a truck to me... MEH, so now we have holy power just for shield slam, sounds rather weak to me, why give paladins all this new stuff just for ret, and prot and holy get penalized for being paladins?
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Pizbit » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:28 pm

steadypal wrote:so GC said shield slam will hit like a truck, but now is saying if it doesnt have 3 stacks it will hit less than it does live? sounds like its not hitting like a truck to me... MEH, so now we have holy power just for shield slam, sounds rather weak to me, why give paladins all this new stuff just for ret, and prot and holy get penalized for being paladins?


Let's save the "MEH"ing until we see the real numbers, it could simply be 1HP = less than live, 2=same, 3=more, or 2 could equal 1.2x live, 3=2.5x, the actual numbers balancing is a while off yet regardless.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby steadypal » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:33 pm

<3 means 2 will hit weaker than live


do we know if they are going to fix what applies seal of truth? says single target applications will apply but its still just applying with autoswings
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Gideon » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:08 pm

HP system for threat rather than survival and separate single target/AOE tanking "finishing moves". I like it.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:41 pm

My initial reading of GC's "< 3" comment was just that it'll scale up per HoPo, "like TV does today". As in, each HoPo is worth more than the last, and 1 3HoPo ShoR is worth more than 3 1HoPo ShoRs. That makes sense to me. The actual end numbers will be tuned to whatever they need to be for gearing at 85.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arincia » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:06 pm

The only issue i have with 3 HP vrs a 1 or 2 method comes down to the fact we are stacking a ton of threat on a single move to dodge/parried/missed. Sure we keep holy shield it may make our threat more spikier.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Bobness » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:24 am

Well,

I'm a lot more on Board with this indicative implemetation of Holy Shield.

Seems a lot more sensible.... not penalty for Ramp up & a potential sink in inquisition to temporarily up AOE damage, sounds pretty reasonable to me...


Let's see if it makes it into a build.
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