Remove Advertisements

beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:21 pm

Flex wrote:Tools we can use: HotR, HW and Consecration.
Tools they can use: Cleave, Thunder Clap and Shockwave.

At worst it is a wash. At best positive in favor of Paladins. But you always see doom so I bet you find it in favor of Warriors.

Um, how has Cleave changed from the current tooltip MMO-champ shows? It shows it as a 10 + up-to-20 rage cost to do basically what it does now. Not much different than the 20 rage cost it has now.

Don't forget AS, too. If you're just AE tanking, I think we're fine. Dealing with fresh adds with almost nothing shorter than an 8-10 second cooldown makes me a little nervous though.
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:30 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:What exactly would be forcing you to use Avenger's Shield when you know you'll need it for something else before it comes off cooldown? Doing so is just a bad play decision.

I think it'd be their intent to make it our hardest hitting ability. Currently (without glyphed holy wrath anyway), AS seems to be doing more damage over time than any other single ability. If you're holding AS to pick up adds, you're losing probably 20-30% of your tps.


I don't actually think this is true, even in our broken ass build right now without ShoR?

Now, someone like Flex would apparently point out that it's beta and things may change. With a wait-and-see attitude like that, it seems like we don't even need this forum... why discuss things that aren't finalized, right? No, we don't know where Blizzard is going to end up with what paladin tanks can or can't do for utility, or what we'll be doing for active damage reduction buffs/debuffs, but I think we should discuss things as they are now, and as things change we can alter our discussion.


Well in this particular case, where the current build is literally broken I don't think that waiting and seeing is unreasonable.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10455
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arianne » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:39 pm

d503 wrote:Very easy - The raid is on the move b/c of defile, infest hits someone who's PW:S had popped (for whatever reason), and they're taking Infest damage faster than a healer can keep them up. Pop LoH - crisis averted. To say that saving one life on Heroic LK25 while progressing is not worthwhile, is folly.


Saving people from poor play doesn't give us a play style. Why did that person pull aggro on ghouls? Why did they stand in defile? Why did the healer let it grow to where someone is taking more than they can heal (which means like 7s of infest with no heals)? In my experience if someone's taking that much damage from infest then probably 5-6 people are and it's better to wipe it up so that people can learn to play better.

d503 wrote:Neither do I. But I do think that getting off a cleanse on the first person who has Combustion after 50% transition on H:Halion25 and preventing a big spread of that debuff would be pretty important, and potential prevent a wipe.


What strat do you use that the person who has Combustion runs near where you're tanking to drop it off? That puts them a) out of range of the healers and b) into range of the breath cone, which I would think are significantly larger risks because then they're likely to die, which is worse than a slightly larger combustion circle.

d503 wrote:Raiders in that mindset are generally frowned upon in my guild. People who think that Pre-potting is not important, or using more advantageous food instead of Fish, or people who think it's ok to Tunnel on the boss when you need them to kill adds because "the other ranged got it." It's not the individual parts, it's the sum of that, and sometimes enabling and inspiring them to care about those things will net better performance.


We have several DPSers who refuse to swap to adds (because it reduces their DPS and the lower DPS people can afford to swap and kill the add - BTW these are the people that need Salv in my guild). We have only some people that will pre-pot. Most everyone uses FF. Still, the only people that need salv are the fury warriors with Shadowmourne, Frost DKs and maybe Mages or warlocks when doing burst AoE.

In our last ICC25 run & RS trash, we had 7 casts of HoSalv over the entire night (and 3 of those were our Holy pally on himself during RS trash). On your last ICC25 run & RS trash, you cast HoSalv once (on yourself, presumably with the glyph or on rotface) and your raid cast HoSalv 8 times total (mostly your ret paladin that likes to take aggro on blood beasts).

Does that mean that salv is useful? We raid for 3 hours, so 7 casts over 180 minutes is 1 cast every 25 minutes.

We have a filled rotation as a paladin tank because our utility abilites are only useful very infrequently. Jamming us into a priority order instead of a rotation doesn't work for us because all we're going to be is bored.
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Steve » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:53 pm

Historically using consecrate to actually pick up adds hasn't been all that effective, and going forward I expect it to be less effective. AoE damage/threat is going down but the amount of healing threat is only going to increase as players' health pools increase.

But who really picks up new adds with (only) consecrate? You need a decent chunk of burst to grab any add. For me it's always been reckoning, AS, ShoR, HotR, judgment, or on rare occasions exorcism/AW. Once you have some adds on you you can drop the consecrate to help hold the threat, but actually using consecrate to do the heavy lifting just doesn't happen all that often.

Think back to TBC when consecrate relative to heal aggro was maybe five times as effective (probably more) as it is going to be in cataclysm. How many times did you use consecrate to pick up murloc adds on Morogrim? You could shield toss 3, judge another, and hope your taunt was enough to pick up the rest. But good luck picking them up with a consecrate. Once you had them on you consecrate was awesome, but for actual pickup you needed more burst threat -- one consecrate tick as they ran through simply wasn't enough to beat heal aggro reliably.

(All of which is to say losing consecrate for 20/30 seconds is going to have little impact on our add pickup abilities. The effect is going to be on sustained AoE threat.)
Steve
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:04 am

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Yelena » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:58 pm

Arianne wrote:We have several DPSers who refuse to swap to adds (because it reduces their DPS and the lower DPS people can afford to swap and kill the add - BTW these are the people that need Salv in my guild). We have only some people that will pre-pot. Most everyone uses FF. Still, the only people that need salv are the fury warriors with Shadowmourne, Frost DKs and maybe Mages or warlocks when doing burst AoE.

In our last ICC25 run & RS trash, we had 7 casts of HoSalv over the entire night (and 3 of those were our Holy pally on himself during RS trash). On your last ICC25 run & RS trash, you cast HoSalv once (on yourself, presumably with the glyph or on rotface) and your raid cast HoSalv 8 times total (mostly your ret paladin that likes to take aggro on blood beasts).

Does that mean that salv is useful? We raid for 3 hours, so 7 casts over 180 minutes is 1 cast every 25 minutes.

We have a filled rotation as a paladin tank because our utility abilites are only useful very infrequently. Jamming us into a priority order instead of a rotation doesn't work for us because all we're going to be is bored.

Gauging the frequency of uses of a utility between different raids with raiders of different mindsets doesn't hold a lot of merit. I could point out quite a few of your raiders' bad habits in the first paragraph I quoted, but there's no need (someone else will probably do it for me anyway), it wouldn't serve much purpose. Every guild does things differently, how right it is falls under the category of subjective.

My point is: Comparing how many times an ability is used, in a very much 'apples vs. oranges' comparison, doesn't serve much else but say "my raid does it this way, while yours does it this way". How does that determine the potential usefulness of situational useful utility XYZ?
Valleri - Frostwolf
Yelena
 
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:54 am
Location: Behind the Eight Ball

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arianne » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:02 pm

It's going to affect both. Back in BC Consecration was much more reliable to pick up things than it is now. To pick up murlocs on Morogrim, you put down a consecration and you had a warlock to drop as many HLs on before they got in range and after they spawned. We didn't have HotR in BC and you only used AS to pick up ones that didn't come into the consecration (because it slowed them and was the only way to recover adds that didn't go where you wanted them to).

Flex wrote:Nope. Maybe if they're being hit by multiple things, but having many things to hit wont up their rage income.

Tools we can use: HotR, HW and Consecration.
Tools they can use: Cleave, Thunder Clap and Shockwave.

At worst it is a wash. At best positive in favor of Paladins. But you always see doom so I bet you find it in favor of Warriors.


I thought they were changing warriors so they got most of their rage from hitting things rather than being hit? I don't have a warrior though, so maybe I'm wrong.

You forgot AS for us and Revenge for warriors. You also forgot to add the cooldowns. HotR is 8s and hits 3. HW is 15s and hits all. Consecration is 10s and hits all with a 30s cooldown. AS has a 24 s cooldown. Cleave has no cd and costs 10 rage (according to wowhead). Thunder Clap has a 6s cooldown. Shockwave has a 20s cooldown. Revenge has a 5 s cooldown. I don't see how us having abilities on a longer cooldown means that it's more positive in our favor. Sure, if we get lucky then AS counts as having a 20% shorter cooldown (ie: a 19s cooldown if I did the math right, but that still puts it as a long cooldown). They're obviously going to make it so that the threat is relatively even between both classes, but what that means is that we're going to be spamming CS and ShoR whereas warriors are going to be spamming Thunder Clap and Revenge with some Cleave and maybe a devastate/shield slam in there. That doesn't sound like a very interesting AoE rotation nor does it sound like AoE really. It seems to me that they're removing our AoE ability and giving it to warriors.

I'm worried about pick up of new adds. We have 2 abilities on a long cooldown (AS, Cons), one ability on a medium cooldown (HW), and one ability on a short cooldown (HotR). Warriors have 3 short cooldowns (cleave, revenge, thunder clap) and one long cooldown (shockwave). We both have taunt, but warriors have challenging shout and heroic throw as well. I think mocking blow is gone though?

Yelena wrote:Comparing how many times an ability is used, in a very much 'apples vs. oranges' comparison, doesn't serve much else but say "my raid does it this way, while yours does it this way". How does that determine the potential usefulness of situational useful utility XYZ?


And my point was that in guilds that have different mind sets and do things a different way, you don't see any difference in the ability usage.
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby d503 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:18 pm

Arianne wrote:On your last ICC25 run & RS trash, you cast HoSalv once (on yourself, presumably with the glyph or on rotface) and your raid cast HoSalv 8 times total (mostly your ret paladin that likes to take aggro on blood beasts).


WoL creep! ;)

I'm not dismissing your mindset Arianne, but I think in the raiding mid-game, where my guild firmly sits (800-1500 world rank) there is unfortunately going to be some "cleaning up" of poor players' gameplay. That might involve using one of those clutch abilities, and in our case, that may also turn the tide of the encounter.

For your guild, things may be different. But my experience as a guild/raid leader has been to try and not trivialize any sort of help/buff/risk mitigation utility.

Thanks for the pleasant discourse :D
User avatar
d503
 
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:31 pm
Location: Northern California, US

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Ocin » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:20 pm

theckhd wrote:
Shoju wrote:Most warriors do, and I hear a lot of warriors who say that there is no reason to play a warrior, when you can play the all grown up Paladin.

I really don't understand this attitude, to be honest. After having played both, the warrior has a vastly superior toolkit for tanking. Threat management is a bit clickspammy due to the "on next swing" mechanic, but that's outweighed in my mind by the variety of tools they have. Three spells for mobility, many for dealing with casters (SB/HT/SR and two stuns), Disarm, Berserker Rage, Hamstring, and AoE Fear/Taunt/debuffs.

When I rolled Theck in classic, it was a toss-up between Warrior and Paladin. At the time, warriors had some serious problems (or so I read, I wasn't deep enough into the game to know better), so I rolled a paladin. Having seen what warrior tanking is like, I can say with certainty that if I got to make that choice over again, I'd have chosen warrior. They're just hands-down more fun to play and far more versatile.

Paladins may be better tanks on paper, but it's only by virtue of brute force - our threat output is generally better, and our EH is slightly higher, and we're arguably easier to play.


I've been trying to pound that home for a while now. A lot of people that complain about a paladin tanks rotation being boring should really try playing a warrior tank. On live its different, but from what I keep hearing on the beta, we don't have a lot going for us to set us apart.
Last edited by Ocin on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ocin
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:55 am
Location: NJ/NYC

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby d503 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:21 pm

Arianne wrote:I'm worried about pick up of new adds. We have 2 abilities on a long cooldown (AS, Cons), one ability on a medium cooldown (HW), and one ability on a short cooldown (HotR). Warriors have 3 short cooldowns (cleave, revenge, thunder clap) and one long cooldown (shockwave). We both have taunt, but warriors have challenging shout and heroic throw as well. I think mocking blow is gone though?


I don't think we're going to be seeing Thorim Arena style add fights in Cata. I remember GC saying something about that in a blue post relatively recently.

EDIT: there it is: http://goo.gl/F5N4

EDIT: Looks like I misinterpreted his quote slightly...thanks, memory. Anyway, hopefully the basic point remains :|
User avatar
d503
 
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:31 pm
Location: Northern California, US

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Steve » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:27 pm

Arianne wrote:To pick up murlocs on Morogrim, you put down a consecration and you had a warlock to drop as many HLs on before they got in range and after they spawned.


You're basically making my point. Even back in TBC when consecration was extremely powerful you picked these up with heal threat.

d503 wrote:I don't think we're going to be seeing Thorim Arena style add fights in Cata.


And add pickup wouldn't change much in this situation. What did you use consecrate to 'pick up'? The non-elites you didn't have to tank? You didn't even have to tank the casters either. All you had to pick up were the whirlwind guys and the dudes with that massive frost attack, and you sure as hell didn't use consecrate to do it.
Steve
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:04 am

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:28 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:What exactly would be forcing you to use Avenger's Shield when you know you'll need it for something else before it comes off cooldown? Doing so is just a bad play decision.

I think it'd be their intent to make it our hardest hitting ability. Currently (without glyphed holy wrath anyway), AS seems to be doing more damage over time than any other single ability. If you're holding AS to pick up adds, you're losing probably 20-30% of your tps.


I don't actually think this is true, even in our broken ass build right now without ShoR?

Eh, HotR is probably slightly higher, but everything else is pretty weak.

As I recall, AS is 7.8-8k for me. HotR is 3.5k, and holy wrath is 2.7k. Judgement is 1k, CS is ~900, white hits are 450ish.

In a 20 second period (1 AS), I'll get 2.5 HotRs, 5 CSs, 2 judgements, and like 12 or 13 white hits. I think SoV is ticking around 680 at 5, and proccing for 350. So... I guess in that sense our auto-attacks are the largest contribution over time.

I'm assuming ShoR will be a hard hitter every 12 seconds (assuming we're doing 3-stacks for holy shield but need to blow HoPo on ShoR for threat instead of heals... if you want heals, you don't even get this ability for damage anyway), so it will probably end up as a larger contribution than AS. HotR is a little stronger, but not by much. I don't have a way of maxing out my vengeance stack, so different things may scale differently.

Now, if you assume an extra 25% of AS (i think that's about the contribution from grand crusader), then AS is back on top of 2.5 HotRs. Melee + SoV ticks + SoV procs is still slightly stronger if you add those together and call them "autoattack damage". (-- This puts AS at 20-25% of total damage in a given 20 second window, assuming we can use everything. I think they're planning on linking the HotR and CS cooldowns, to make it more obvious that HotR is for group tanking? That'll probably involve some damage rebalancing.)

Sabindeus wrote:Well in this particular case, where the current build is literally broken I don't think that waiting and seeing is unreasonable.

So what's the point of this whole thread? :)
This is the first build I've actually played in, and it's not non-functional broken... I just don't have ShoR. I get to dump HoPo into HS directly or WoG, I'm talented, my abilities do damage in some proportion that seems like what blizzard has stated they're shooting for (see: AS is supposed to be a hard-hitter for our single-target rotation, and it is.)

Interestingly, autoattacks are proccing vindication even though the talent still only reads holy wrath.
Last edited by Rasmfrackn on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arianne » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:31 pm

And that makes me think that they're designing themselves out of interesting encounters. I don't see how they're leaving themselves design space for the Cata raids.

No streaming adds (ala Thorim).
No rush add packs (ala Halion).
Vengeance is going to make tank swaps tricky (your DPS are generating threat at 8k per second, the old tank is generating at 9k per second, the new tank gets set to the old tank's threat and then generates 6k per second because they don't have any Vengeance stacks so your old tank and/or your DPS catch up and pass unless every tank has a way to put out huge burst threat that can cover until their Vengeance stacks catch up).
No interrupts (because prot paladins don't have an interrupt).
No magic damage spikes (because then DKs are better than everyone).
No physical damage spikes (because then warriors and maybe bears are better than everyone).

What else is left?
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Steve » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:32 pm

Arianne wrote:What else is left?


The game being comically unbalanced for the first few patches/raid tiers? It happens basically every expansion.
Steve
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:04 am

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Chicken » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:46 pm

In regards to procs and what not, and continuing on my theme of 'unpredictable but does not require immediate reaction' from before, I was thinking of a new variation of 'cooldown reset' procs like Grand Crusader [GC]. Currently these kind of procs basically require immediate reaction to them, due to the simple fact that they proc some of the more powerful abilities of the class they're from. But what if instead such a proc gave you a buff that allowed you to just ignore the cooldown and cast the spell, while the cooldown continues on ticking normally.

So for GC for instance, we'd simply get a fancy buff that lasts for, say, 10 seconds when it procs. This buff allows us to use Avenger's Shield [AS] while it's on cooldown, and without triggering the cooldown. So imagine you get the proc 15 seconds before AS is ready, but you wait a further 6 seconds before using it. In this implementation, your AS will be normally available in 9 seconds from that point. And if you have the buff while AS is ready to be used? Well, you can just throw two ASs in a row.

It basically achieves the same thing as the cooldown reset does (Allow an extra use of AS), but it's less 'punishing' if you delay using it for a while. The proc rate might need some adjusting since a system like this does lead to more ASs on average, but it's a bit less punishing and also allows a bit more flexibility in the ability use. And you can still 'waste' the proc if you happen to proc it a second time if you left your buff up. It just doesn't require immediate response nearly as much as a full on cooldown reset does.
Image
User avatar
Chicken
 
Posts: 1597
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Ocin » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:50 pm

deleted
Last edited by Ocin on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ocin
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:55 am
Location: NJ/NYC

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest