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beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:22 am

Arianne wrote:The ONLY spell in that list that is 'encounter swinging' is Divine Sacrifice (when talented with Divine Guardian). I'll give you Hand of Sacrifice as well because if everyone else fucks up, you could potentially save the day by using it (if you noticed and weren't tanking).


I would disagree. I have used Hand of Freedom, Hand of Protection, and Hand of sacrifice to get more first kills than I have Divine Sacrifice.


Shathus wrote:
Flex wrote:
Shoju wrote:Right now it seems like Blizzard is saying the hook is because we are faceroll, and they want to change that. I'm saying, I don't see the new hook, and that is irritating.


To me, the hook of the Paladin, when I got serious into the game, has always been when do you stop doing your role specific abilities for a GCD or two to do things you can do as a Paladin.

"Why be a warrior when you can be a warrior that can heal, rez, and save other people too"

That last part is big since it can be game changing. It isn't so different from the things warriors take for granted that we envy. They envy the things we take for granted since we've always had them.

TL:DR version: Being a Paladin is fucking awesome.


I agree with Flex and as others have stated. In BC I was a druid. I enjoyed tanking, but bear form was just missing the flavor for me (I wanted to wear plate and have a shield). I enjoy the paladin because it's a paladin, not just a paladin tank. You've got the 96969, etc but a lot of the things I like you can do in any spec, and with dual spec, it's nice to have that option and not lose your utility. Like Theck said, a warrior has a large tanking toolset, we have a large all-purpose toolset. Between all the Hand spells, Auras, DG/DS, Blessings and shields, I can be a paladin no matter what spec I'm in, and that really sets appears the good ones from the bad.

Now, granted this is a tanking forum and people are focused on that, but all of the above still applies when you're tanking, those abilities may not directly affect your tanking, but the affect the raid and it's success, and that's what I like bringing to the table... while still wearing plate and swinging a shield (unless I'm ret heh).

EDIT: looks like Arianne posted something similar just before me as well and added a few spells I forgot.


And what I'm saying is, we are going to be getting cutback in the all purpose toolbox department. That was a stated design goal for Cataclysm. With that toolbox dwindling, we are losing that as a hook.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Flex » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:25 am

Shoju wrote:And what I'm saying is, we are going to be getting cutback in the all purpose toolbox department. That was a stated design goal for Cataclysm. With that toolbox dwindling, we are losing that as a hook.


Only thing they have specifically mentioned is magic cleansing. We're losing 50% DP which also hurts Ret a fair deal. Forbearance is enough of a limiter and kludge for immunity shields.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby d503 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:29 am

Arianne wrote:
Shoju wrote:We have so many different interesting spells that we can use.
Divine Sacrifice
Hand of Sacrifice
Hand of Protection
Hand of Salvation
Sacred Shield
Lay on Hands
Cleanse

These are all incredibly powerful, and possibly encounter swinging spells that we as paladins can use.


The ONLY spell in that list that is 'encounter swinging' is Divine Sacrifice (when talented with Divine Guardian). I'll give you Hand of Sacrifice as well because if everyone else fucks up, you could potentially save the day by using it (if you noticed and weren't tanking).


I'm surprised to see you say that with your level of progression. I've used cluth LoH's to save infests on HLK25, Cleanses on a variety of fights when a healer was OOR, HoP for a variety of gimmick fights, Salv so that my DPS could go more balls-out on fights, and Hand of Sac so that my fellow tanks or other folks taking damage could take a little less.

It's about using the abilities critically, not about their capacity to be used critically. I think one can argue that most of these abilities are "encounter swinging."

If you're not of the mindset that the smallest bit of heads-up play can be encounter swinging, then the end-game is the wrong place.

DS/DG is a crutch that should just be removed from the game, considering that it makes learning encounters trivialized by the presence of enough paladins to cover raid-wide mechanics (see: Heroic Infest).
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:32 am

Flex wrote:
Shoju wrote:And what I'm saying is, we are going to be getting cutback in the all purpose toolbox department. That was a stated design goal for Cataclysm. With that toolbox dwindling, we are losing that as a hook.


Only thing they have specifically mentioned is magic cleansing. We're losing 50% DP which also hurts Ret a fair deal. Forbearance is enough of a limiter and kludge for immunity shields.



List of tone downs that have occured for Paladins:

Specifically for prot and ret:
-Magic Cleansing
-Buffed Sacred Shield (though ret might have only used it in PvP, I rocked an AM build most of the time I was ret). for a paladin who doesn't normally have another paladin in the raid, this is probably a bigger deal for me than some others, as I used mine all the time.
-Divine Sacrifice as a personal Cooldown
-Ardent Defender (old form). We have a new, less impressive clickable ardent defender
-Aura Mastery
- The ability to bring Vindication (Ret)

Removed across the board:
-IMP> Lay on Hands
-Divine Intervention

Talked about being removed
Glyph of Salvation - often used as a personal cooldown for prot in PVE.

I will update this as soon as I can get a cat site to open.
Last edited by Shoju on Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Flex » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:36 am

Shoju wrote:List of tone downs that have occured for Paladins


I was actually looking at it more from a PvP perspective not PvE, where it can be argued that Word of Glory and new Divine Protection are pretty potent.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arianne » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:39 am

Flex wrote:Are there fights where you target someone for HoP and you try to cast and it wont because they are immune? And I'm not having anything being both ways. Warriors can have Mobility, fine. We have various protection mechanisms.


You're right, I forgot DBS. Half the time I think it's not much of a help because if you use HoP too early then the healers stop healing that person and they die as soon as HoP ends. So generally the main thing that happens is that the healers keep spam healing that person and you protected them from any spikes (or if you cast it when someone gets low then they have a second to get healed to full instead of dying from the next spike).

Flex wrote:Yes, being able to on-the-fly decide if you have enough time to use the proc now and have it come off cooldown before the add spawns is obviously making the game less fun. Plus, unless I am mistaken, we still rock a hell of a taunt.


GC resets the cooldown. It doesn't let you use it and then the cooldown is from the previous time you used it (normally without GC). The adds spawn every 30s. So no, you don't have a choice (I guess unless the CS immediately after using it refreshed it since in Cata AS has a 24s cooldown). HoR doesn't work on Infernos (they're immune to all taunts).

Flex wrote:And we get a multi-target melee attack and a 3 target ranged attack.


Warriors still have Cleave and Revenge too. Their 'AoE rotation' is much more filled than ours is currently.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Flex » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:43 am

So no, you don't have a choice (I guess unless the CS immediately after using it refreshed it since in Cata AS has a 24s cooldown).


So you potentially have a choice. How wonderful. Also refrain from using things like "in Cata AS has" since Cataclysm has not been released.

Warriors still have Cleave and Revenge too. Their 'AoE rotation' is much more filled than ours is currently.


Cleave has changed pretty drastically and can spell doom if used improperly as it is now an AOE rage dump.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arianne » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:50 am

Shoju wrote:I would disagree. I have used Hand of Freedom, Hand of Protection, and Hand of sacrifice to get more first kills than I have Divine Sacrifice.


Please, enlighten me as to what these were.

d503 wrote:I'm surprised to see you say that with your level of progression. I've used cluth LoH's to save infests on HLK25, Cleanses on a variety of fights when a healer was OOR, HoP for a variety of gimmick fights, Salv so that my DPS could go more balls-out on fights, and Hand of Sac so that my fellow tanks or other folks taking damage could take a little less.

It's about using the abilities critically, not about their capacity to be used critically. I think one can argue that most of these abilities are "encounter swinging."

If you're not of the mindset that the smallest bit of heads-up play can be encounter swinging, then the end-game is the wrong place.

DS/DG is a crutch that should just be removed from the game, considering that it makes learning encounters trivialized by the presence of enough paladins to cover raid-wide mechanics (see: Heroic Infest).


How does a clutch LoH "save infests"? Hand of Sac doesn't reduce damage, it just splits it. None of those examples are "encounter swinging" usages except where you've gone into hyperbole. Maybe my definition of "encounter swinging" is just different than yours. I don't think that someone on Rotface getting cleansed by me a second earlier than they would have by a healer is "encounter swinging". I don't think that the offtank on Sindragosa getting a HoF so that they can run behind an ice block 1 second earlier is "encounter swinging". I don't think that a DPSer doing 5000 DPS or 5500 DPS is "encounter swinging". AM is "encounter swinging". Divine Sac/Divine Guardian is "encounter swinging".

Sacred Shield the spell has been entirely removed as of the last build.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:57 am

Arianne wrote:
Shoju wrote:I would disagree. I have used Hand of Freedom, Hand of Protection, and Hand of sacrifice to get more first kills than I have Divine Sacrifice.


Please, enlighten me as to what these were.


Hand of Sacrifice - Mimiron. Down a 5 up, 1 healer, 1 tank, 3 dps, I HoSac'd the tank on damage that would have killed him on the first kill.

Hand of Protection - Thorim. Arena. Healer HoP'd on first kill. Saved him from the adds.

Hand of Freedom - Sindragosa attempts. I HoP everyone I can on a fight with movement slowing that can be negated.

Hand of Salv - Like someone else said, Salv lets the dps get nutty.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Arianne » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:16 pm

Shoju wrote:Hand of Sacrifice - Mimiron. Down a 5 up, 1 healer, 1 tank, 3 dps, I HoSac'd the tank on damage that would have killed him on the first kill.


So, in other words, you were a DPS and those saved the day. That's not relevant. I don't know how you HoSac'd the tank on mimiron and didn't die yourself with one healer up. You could have saved the day just as well by stopping DPS and healing or by using AoW procs to heal the tank (which is much more likely to have saved the day than using HoSac on Mimiron in phase 3). That's the ability that often saves encounters (in fact, we got our first Halion heroic kill yesterday because one of our shadow priests started healing at 4% when our other healers died). Still, that has nothing to do with tanking or with paladin flavor while tanking.

Shoju wrote:Hand of Freedom - Sindragosa attempts. I HoP everyone I can on a fight with movement slowing that can be negated.

Hand of Salv - Like someone else said, Salv lets the dps get nutty.


So we have 1 example of a DPS saving the day and we have two examples of 'well I can't say they were encounter swinging, but they must have been because I used them'. The HoP usage was encounter swinging (because the healer and tank played badly).

Sure, the Paladin class as a whole has some useful abilities. Most of them are less useful when you're a tank because you're getting hit, you're out of range, or are better used by the other specs. I don't see how that is our playstyle flavor. Playstyle flavor is what differentiates a paladin tank from a warrior tank from a druid tank, but it's also what separates a holy paladin from a retribution paladin from a protection paladin. One of the huge complaints about DKs is that as a tank you're just a DPSer with defense (ie: your rotation doesn't change between DPSing and tanking).

Remember, we're discussing what they're going to replace the "Block tank" flavor and the "filled rotation" flavor that paladin tanks have currently.

Flex wrote:So you potentially have a choice. How wonderful. Also refrain from using things like "in Cata AS has" since Cataclysm has not been released.


How often is AS going to be refreshed by the first CS after using it? Maybe that's something to ask in the 'ask a beta tester' thread, but my impression currently is that GC doesn't proc very often - something around 5% ish? Of course I'm going to say what I'm referring to because sometimes I refer to current abilities and sometimes I refer to how abilities are planned to be in Cata. Does that mean they're not going to change? Of course not, but we have to base our discussions on what is currently planned.

Cleave has changed pretty drastically and can spell doom if used improperly as it is now an AOE rage dump.


So? It's still a tool that they can use. They're more likely to have higher rage in a situation when they're hitting more things, right? So it's more likely that they'll use it? How does this statement counter my statement that they have a fuller AoE rotation with more tools available?
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:40 pm

What exactly would be forcing you to use Avenger's Shield when you know you'll need it for something else before it comes off cooldown? Doing so is just a bad play decision.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Yelena » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:46 pm

Shoju wrote:Talked about being removed
Glyph of Salvation - often used as a personal cooldown for prot in PVE.

Divine Barkskin will provide the same effect as a glyphed Hand of Salvation, with half the cooldown, and without losing 20% of your total threat (if you didn't cancel the Salv early). Guardian of Ancient Kings is taking the place of the current Divine Protection.

Given that, the necessity to retain the glyphed Hand of Salvation isn't as dire.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby d503 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:50 pm

Arianne wrote:How does a clutch LoH "save infests"?

Very easy - The raid is on the move b/c of defile, infest hits someone who's PW:S had popped (for whatever reason), and they're taking Infest damage faster than a healer can keep them up. Pop LoH - crisis averted. To say that saving one life on Heroic LK25 while progressing is not worthwhile, is folly.
Arianne wrote:Hand of Sac doesn't reduce damage, it just splits it.
You're missing the points. HoSac is about mitigating Burst. E.g. - Soul Reaper, transitions on tanks, Harvest Soul (normal LK10/25), Green Slime Targets on Heroic PP...
Arianne wrote:None of those examples are "encounter swinging" usages except where you've gone into hyperbole. Maybe my definition of "encounter swinging" is just different than yours.

It definitely is. When doing encounters that are balanced for 25 people, everything you can do to keep those 25 people alive is important and critical.
Arianne wrote:I don't think that someone on Rotface getting cleansed by me a second earlier than they would have by a healer is "encounter swinging". I don't think that the offtank on Sindragosa getting a HoF so that they can run behind an ice block 1 second earlier is "encounter swinging".

Neither do I. But I do think that getting off a cleanse on the first person who has Combustion after 50% transition on H:Halion25 and preventing a big spread of that debuff would be pretty important, and potential prevent a wipe.
Arianne wrote:I don't think that a DPSer doing 5000 DPS or 5500 DPS is "encounter swinging".

Raiders in that mindset are generally frowned upon in my guild. People who think that Pre-potting is not important, or using more advantageous food instead of Fish, or people who think it's ok to Tunnel on the boss when you need them to kill adds because "the other ranged got it." It's not the individual parts, it's the sum of that, and sometimes enabling and inspiring them to care about those things will net better performance.

Arianne wrote:AM is "encounter swinging". Divine Sac/Divine Guardian is "encounter swinging".

Totally agree.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Flex » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:00 pm

Arianne wrote:How often is AS going to be refreshed by the first CS after using it?


Procs are wonderful things and allow for varied game play. It is a fly by the seat of your pants thing.

So? It's still a tool that they can use. They're more likely to have higher rage in a situation when they're hitting more things, right?


Nope. Maybe if they're being hit by multiple things, but having many things to hit wont up their rage income.

Tools we can use: HotR, HW and Consecration.
Tools they can use: Cleave, Thunder Clap and Shockwave.

At worst it is a wash. At best positive in favor of Paladins. But you always see doom so I bet you find it in favor of Warriors.
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Re: beta build 12694 (8, 5 2010)

Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:03 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:What exactly would be forcing you to use Avenger's Shield when you know you'll need it for something else before it comes off cooldown? Doing so is just a bad play decision.

I think it'd be their intent to make it our hardest hitting ability. Currently (without glyphed holy wrath anyway), AS seems to be doing more damage over time than any other single ability. If you're holding AS to pick up adds, you're losing probably 20-30% of your tps.

Now, someone like Flex would apparently point out that it's beta and things may change. With a wait-and-see attitude like that, it seems like we don't even need this forum... why discuss things that aren't finalized, right? No, we don't know where Blizzard is going to end up with what paladin tanks can or can't do for utility, or what we'll be doing for active damage reduction buffs/debuffs, but I think we should discuss things as they are now, and as things change we can alter our discussion.

Personally, I have every confidence they'll do whatever they need to to balance our threat and give us a reasonable set of attacks. What I'm a lot more worried about is the clunkiness they're going to give us for utility and defense. AS is a good attack for threat now, but it borks our ranged pickups (which IMO is one of the few areas where the paladin toolkit exceeds the warrior one, re: theck a few pages back. I seem to be the best tank for HHoR that most of my 5mans have seen b/c i can pick up adds at range almost all the time.), and tying HoPo to ShoR to HS is a very hardwired way of fusing our offensive rotation with our active defense, and therefore as our one HoPo dump. To use WoG we'll have to stutter our threat by not dumping HoPo on ShoR. That doesn't sit well with me.

-- Um, the GC talent says it's 20% right in the tooltip. :) With a 1 in 5 chance, that's an expected 5 attempts per success, so you've got a near 50/50 chance of getting AS refreshed early via CS with a 4 second CS cooldown and a 20 second AS cooldown. And since it's not too many attempts, and a reasonable % rate, I think you can also assume it's about an even chance across the whole 20 second interval. So... 50/50 of even getting a proc, and if you do it'll, on average, be halfway through.
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