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Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Aedh » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:30 am

Marklevin wrote:Why are people complaining so much about Avenger's Shield having its CD reset? It's supposed to be our tag ability (since we get it when we spec Protection initially) Doing more stuff with it is a GOOD thing. I love having a CD reset to watch out for, don't worry so much about your damn pulling tool and worry more about using your signature ability more than once per fight.


Not QQing, but AS is a RANGED multi-target skill. Yes it is our signature move, but it is a RANGED attacked. CD reset will encourage chain pulling and more AoE maddness. And doesn't AS cost a chunk of mana? Sure it's kinda cool to toss it in melee, or it was when it was hitting harder than my HotR long long ago. All it has is that spiffy flying golden disk, which will be rather hard to see when you are in melee, and it uses the standard target cast animation. We already have a signature melee attack, HotR.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Ortrar » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:32 am

Fridmarr wrote:Lets tone down the QQ and the QQ backlash a bit and have some actual discussion. I'd hate to have to lock this thread.


Right. I for one am looking forward to us having a less predictable (and harder?) rotation. It will separate the boys from the men so to speak. At the moment the rotation seems a bit confusing, but I take comfort in the fact that we are seeing snapshots of a work in progress. I'm confident Blizz will sort it out.

Only point I'm worried about, as I said, is that we have very little in the area of actual blocking abilities. Passive blocking abilities are boring...
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:40 am

I'm not sure I agree so much with the talk of shoehorning Holy Power into Prot, because they've not really done much about that anyway. They gave us one mechanism (Holy Shield), and then they made it a little less punishing by adding 5 seconds to HS. Right now they could remove Holy Power entirely and prot would barely change, Crusader Strike would go from "use 3 times every 20 seconds to keep up HS" to "use to fill gaps" and wind up not much different. The changes in this build had very little to do with Holy Power, so you can't blame them focusing on HP for not liking what they did.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Marklevin » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:52 am

Aedh wrote:
Marklevin wrote:Why are people complaining so much about Avenger's Shield having its CD reset? It's supposed to be our tag ability (since we get it when we spec Protection initially) Doing more stuff with it is a GOOD thing. I love having a CD reset to watch out for, don't worry so much about your damn pulling tool and worry more about using your signature ability more than once per fight.


Not QQing, but AS is a RANGED multi-target skill. Yes it is our signature move, but it is a RANGED attacked. CD reset will encourage chain pulling and more AoE maddness. And doesn't AS cost a chunk of mana? Sure it's kinda cool to toss it in melee, or it was when it was hitting harder than my HotR long long ago. All it has is that spiffy flying golden disk, which will be rather hard to see when you are in melee, and it uses the standard target cast animation. We already have a signature melee attack, HotR.



It is a little rough around the edges mana wise and as you said cast looking wise for a melee ability. That said, I have a hard time thinking of Hammer of the Righteous as our signature ability in melee =/ I've always found it really boring compared to the awesomeness of a giant shield careening into a boss and then bouncing out to smack his minions. Maybe that's just me.

As far as the talent in question, it reminds me a lot of the Death Knight's Rime talent, which resets the cooldown on their Howling Blast ability and makes it free. Maybe the talent would be better if it made AS free and off the GCD?
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:53 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I'm not sure I agree so much with the talk of shoehorning Holy Power into Prot, because they've not really done much about that anyway. They gave us one mechanism (Holy Shield), and then they made it a little less punishing by adding 5 seconds to HS. Right now they could remove Holy Power entirely and prot would barely change, Crusader Strike would go from "use 3 times every 20 seconds to keep up HS" to "use to fill gaps" and wind up not much different. The changes in this build had very little to do with Holy Power, so you can't blame them focusing on HP for not liking what they did.


IMO, the problem is this; The Holy Power/Holy Shield synergy we currently see is to increase our block chances and to bring 'em up to the level of warriors.

At this stage, this is what warriors have
http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/86173/improved-block/
http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/76857/critical-block/

Consider, the 5% natural block chance, tack in the other two and you see warriors with 30% block chance right off the bat. not counting what mastery adds to the new Critical Block.

All I've been saying is that Prot Paladin seems quite unpolished and I suspect the reason for that is actually HP.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Flex » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:58 am

Klaudandus wrote:IMO, the problem is this; The Holy Power/Holy Shield synergy we currently see is to increase our block chances and to bring 'em up to the level of warriors.

At this stage, this is what warriors have
http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/86173/improved-block/
http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/76857/critical-block/

Consider, the 5% natural block chance, tack in the other two and you see warriors with 30% block chance right off the bat. not counting what mastery adds to the new Critical Block.

All I've been saying is that Prot Paladin seems quite unpolished and I suspect the reason for that is actually HP.


Does Improved Block exist? From what I saw 5% baseline block + 10% block from Critical Block.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:59 am

Marklevin wrote:Why are people complaining so much about Avenger's Shield having its CD reset? It's supposed to be our tag ability (since we get it when we spec Protection initially) Doing more stuff with it is a GOOD thing. I love having a CD reset to watch out for, don't worry so much about your damn pulling tool and worry more about using your signature ability more than once per fight.


It's just a strange design decision, that's all. There's nothing particularly wrong with it, but most people have in their heads that it's a pulling tool and not much else. So soon we have forgotten the days of 3.0.x and 3.1, where we were (ok, I was) busily comparing substitution rotations to figure out the most efficient way to slip AS in on cooldown. :P

That said, there are a lot of strange design decisions in the beta so far. Despite the mantra of "we want different single-target and AoE rotations," a great number of changes have done things completely counter to that philosophy. In fact, I don't think our single-target differs at all from the multi-target in the current build, barring possibly pushing CS back by one GCD for HW on occasion. It's almost like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing, in that sense.

On the other hand, it seems like they finally realized that it was SoCom causing most of the AoE problems rather than Hammer or Consecration, and took it away from us.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:07 am

I posted something akin to what theck said on the official forums this morning. It has garnered a troll response, and nothing else. :(
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:14 am

Shoju wrote:I posted something akin to what theck said on the official forums this morning. It has garnered a troll response, and nothing else. :(


Can you link us?
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Aedh » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:19 am

theckhd wrote:
It's just a strange design decision, that's all. There's nothing particularly wrong with it, but most people have in their heads that it's a pulling tool and not much else. So soon we have forgotten the days of 3.0.x and 3.1, where we were (ok, I was) busily comparing substitution rotations to figure out the most efficient way to slip AS in on cooldown. :P


I remember those days. I think I mentioned it in my post too.


That said, there are a lot of strange design decisions in the beta so far. Despite the mantra of "we want different single-target and AoE rotations," a great number of changes have done things completely counter to that philosophy. In fact, I don't think our single-target differs at all from the multi-target in the current build, barring possibly pushing CS back by one GCD for HW on occasion. It's almost like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing, in that sense.

On the other hand, it seems like they finally realized that it was SoCom causing most of the AoE problems rather than Hammer or Consecration, and took it away from us.


That's another big issue. It seems like they are forcing AoE stuff at us.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:21 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Shoju wrote:I posted something akin to what theck said on the official forums this morning. It has garnered a troll response, and nothing else. :(


Can you link us?


You have been linked


I don't expect people to hop in and heap praise on my post. I tried to post my opinions on what is going on in as rational as possible format.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:25 am

Shoju wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Shoju wrote:I posted something akin to what theck said on the official forums this morning. It has garnered a troll response, and nothing else. :(


Can you link us?


You have been linked


I don't expect people to hop in and heap praise on my post. I tried to post my opinions on what is going on in as rational as possible format.


If it makes you feel better, this is my thread on the tanking forums.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 9878&sid=1
Last edited by Klaudandus on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Aedh » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:26 am

Marklevin wrote:
As far as the talent in question, it reminds me a lot of the Death Knight's Rime talent, which resets the cooldown on their Howling Blast ability and makes it free. Maybe the talent would be better if it made AS free and off the GCD?


The sad thing is, I am a leveling a frost dk and completely didn't see the parallel between Rime and Grand Crusader.

Make it a free AS and I'll buy it, even though we are getting a lot of dps proc talents. Starting make it seem like we are just dpsing from the front.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Norfolk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:21 pm

I haven't had a chance to log into Beta in the last couple of days, but does anyone know if you can finally learn abilities without having to unlearn a profession with the latest beta build?

My lvl 81 ret paly on beta still couldn't learn spells from earlier levels a week ago unless I opted to unlearn smithing or mining (so I'd been playing on my Worgen)
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Noradin » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:36 pm

I feel that the way warriors are going at the moment there won't be a way to match the design goals they stated for paladins since we aren't allowed do have things warriors already got and their designers are always faster.
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