Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Jonlo » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:56 am

I like this build more than the last one. Although Protector of the Innocent needs to go I think.

I'd go with something like this for right now:
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#sZcrhfoGRRGochM
Image
Jonlo
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:16 pm

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:57 am

Am I the only one that feels that Protector of the Weak has become a talent that only Holy/Rets will take?
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11110
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Zalaria » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:00 am

Dantriges wrote:Oh and have you taken a look at the mage talents? There two with pure placeholder text:

Impact: 8% chance for your firespells to turn the next fire blast into a stun, also ads fun but not dps, raid utility.
Critical mass: Compelling talent that adds utiity for all play styles but not DPS. Sweet!

OMG...
Somehow I get the feeling they have no clue wha to do.


There's a blue post with info on those talents.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/24702262953/mage/#rp_616
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain - It's time to roll the dice
User avatar
Zalaria
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:27 am

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:24 am

Klaudandus wrote:Am I the only one that feels that Protector of the Weak has become a talent that only Holy will take?


Fixed that for you

They need to bring it back to Ret Aura being something important if ret/prot is going to take that talent. Other than that, holy will take it for the devo aura only.

Useless talent for ret.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6358
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Flex » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:28 am

Holy is way too heavy now.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7500
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Marsha » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:36 am

Phonic wrote:Man... too much QQ in the thread!! I'm liking this build much more than the last! Come'on guys... just give Bliz some time. They're trying to make some things work for us and are listening to some feedback as far as I can see. It's time for forget about the tankadin of Wrath, just like we forgot about the tankadin of BC. Was it sad? Some parts yes, other parts no... but either way, we're never going back at this point so let it go and embrace the changes as they come IMO :)

Some things I like about this build in particular:
+I've always likes Avenger's Shield as a part of rotation... It's a cool graphic, yes it's our main pull, but it does decent damage, multiple targets, and a very, very paladin-like concept. So shorter CD and chance to reset the CD are A+ in my book
+HS up to 20 sec... i'd prefer 30, but I think this is just an initial test
+Vindication exclusive to HW... it was bound to happen. I mean, we got the easiest AP debuff in the game atm that procs more frequently and doesn't use a GCD like demo shout/roar. They want HW in the rotation and this gives us decent incentive to use it. Hope they balance the damage properly for both AOE and single
+Removing CDs triggering CDs... most annoying thing besides forbearance, was the mini-forbearance of 30 sec between AW, etc... glad it's starting to go away. More pally wings are a good thing!
+WOG shield... OP. They gonna nerf that.
+Protector of the Innocent change... love that we don't have to take this anymore!! That means max 40 sec HOJ for us. Now take it off the GCD!

Anyways, I was getting a bit concerned, but with this build, i think we're headed in the right direction... I expect to see at least 2-3 more sets of changes before we get into the smaller tweaks, but anyways, I'm gonna test this now on beta!


I agree with Phonic's assessment so far. I've enlarged and bolded his key comment. Seems like some posters here are simply afraid of change. For those of us who tanked before WoLK, we remember not having HS up 100% of the time, Seriously, it's not that big a deal. I didn't die a horrible death back then when it's 8 charges were eaten up before I could cast it again, and my bet is no ones gonna die just from it NOT being up. I haven't seen anyone factor in things we haven't even really seen yet such as changed glyphs, and the effects runeforging in conjunction with mastery will have on all our classes and specs.

All tanks need to take damage fairly equally over the course of any fight so the developers can reliably anticipate that damage, and design fun and interesting fights that challenge all involved. The talents aren't done, we aren't even to the 85 cap yet, and until we see how all this meshes together, most of you are simply wasting everyone's time with posts about what should be. In another month or two we'll have a better idea, but I'd bet cash money these simple facts will hold true when Cataclysm ships.

1. Tanks will be a lot closer to DPS on the damage meters.
2. A players ability to think for them selves as a fight unfolds will define a skilled player.
3. 5 mans will be harder and Heroics will be a lot harder, like the TBC heroics were before they were nurfed to the ground.
4. No one will simply steam roll the 1st 10/25 man dungeons the weekend Cataclysm is released like they did in WoLk
5. We'll see a lot more guilds and less pug mentality when it comes to guild hopping.
6. We'll all have a lot of abilities each of us brings to a group or raid. Guess what, we'll be expected to use them.
7. Expect to see tons of epic crying on the forums as players level to 85 in the new dungeons when pugs blow up because the AOE fest is dead. Joe Casual will be pissed when he actually has spend more than 10-15 minutes doing a heroic. Elite Pete the DPS'er will be pissed he has to manage his threat, stay above the tank on dps, use CC, and hit more than 2 or 3 buttons. Tanks will still have insta queues for dungeons, but will have to actually be able to tank. It will be fun.

There are more of course but I personally look forward to it all unfolding.
User avatar
Marsha
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:44 am

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Noradin » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:44 am

Marsha wrote:For those of us who tanked before WoLK, we remember not having HS up 100% of the time, Seriously, it's not that big a deal. I didn't die a horrible death back then when it's 8 charges were eaten up before I could cast it again, and my bet is no ones gonna die just from it NOT being up.


Comparing blocking in Cata with anything before is like comparing apples and oranges (or avoidance and block right now).
ImageImage
Noradin
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:00 am

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Chunes » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:45 am

I honestly love seeing all this "IF BLIZZ DOESN'T MAKE SURE PALADIN ARE THE MOST OP TANK EVAR I'M GOING TO GO PLAY MY WARRIOR" QQ.

If you haven't noticed, there are too fucking many prot paladins as-is. If there was a FotM tank for WotLK, we're it.

Go play your warrior and stop cluttering this forum with your tears.



That said, betas are an iterative process. WoW is now what, 5+ years old? In that time things get really stale. It's necessary to shift things up now and then and guess what? That takes a lot of work, planning, experimenting, trial/error, etc. With a game as complex as WoW, the coding alone behind what goes into the game must be a massive undertaking to modify while at the same time not breaking everything else. I can't think of any class that was completely and horribly broken for the majority of wrath. Sure, some obscure specs just sucked (hello subtlety rogues!), but there was never a role that sucked for a class. Rogues were able to do awesome dps, priests were awesome healers, paladins were pretty damn good at everything they did, as with druids and warriors too.

Cheer up you all. The beta's not even close to being done.
User avatar
Chunes
 
Posts: 2271
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:51 am

Chunes wrote:I honestly love seeing all this "IF BLIZZ DOESN'T MAKE SURE PALADIN ARE THE MOST OP TANK EVAR I'M GOING TO GO PLAY MY WARRIOR" QQ.

If you haven't noticed, there are too fucking many prot paladins as-is. If there was a FotM tank for WotLK, we're it.

Go play your warrior and stop cluttering this forum with your tears.



That said, betas are an iterative process. WoW is now what, 5+ years old? In that time things get really stale. It's necessary to shift things up now and then and guess what? That takes a lot of work, planning, experimenting, trial/error, etc. With a game as complex as WoW, the coding alone behind what goes into the game must be a massive undertaking to modify while at the same time not breaking everything else. I can't think of any class that was completely and horribly broken for the majority of wrath. Sure, some obscure specs just sucked (hello subtlety rogues!), but there was never a role that sucked for a class. Rogues were able to do awesome dps, priests were awesome healers, paladins were pretty damn good at everything they did, as with druids and warriors too.

Cheer up you all. The beta's not even close to being done.


I think the problem is that people, myself included, is that we feel they're trying to force Holy Power into all 3 Paladin trees and that is holding back the development of Holy, but mostly the Protection tree.

Holy Power, as is, it's good for Retribution, it just works -- but trying to shoehorn it into the other two tree is just complicating things more than they should, which is why they're juggling block ratings, damage coefficients, debuff applications, et all in a way they will be able to use that system for us.

I don't know if its really QQ on my half but all I'm saying is that the HP implementation has been detrimental in the development process of the tanking tree -- were blizz to implement HP only for retribution, the development of Holy and Protection would be more polished by now.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11110
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Dantriges » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:07 am

Yes. The original concept is pretty much in ruins now and they are occupied with making holy power shiny. And yeah I remember BC, paladins were the fotm tanks back then when people wanted a tank for their heroics, when everyone wanted a paladin tank for his heroics and I remember that it took the up to Ulduar in Wrath until they removed our squishyness compared to the other tanks and reduced the OP state of the dk tank.

And at the moment I wonder if they will actually get us into a finished state. They will have to ship Cata sometime and they are losing quite a few subscribers. And I don´t think the argument they will come back in Cata, people are just bored at the moment, cuts it with the management. That´s lost income every month, even if people come back.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:24 am

Holy Power, while an interesting concept, is just a layer of complexity at this point to make things more complex. It isn't enriching the experience of playing a paladin of any spec at this point, and the only interesting choice for Holy Power so far is Word of Glory.


Prot is always going to wait to 3 for Holy Shield on a physical boss, or 3 for WoG on a magic boss.
Ret is a DPS class, and as such is always going to be maximizing their DPS per GCD by going with max (or 2 or 1 or whatever ends up being the min max)
Holy, is the only one that will have an interesting decision for Holy Power. Word of Glory has the most going for it because of the way they are approaching healer mana, and you will be able to decide who needs how much from an instant cast heal at what point. Sure, the stocking up of holy power right now is a little mediocre for all three classes, but at this point, the extra layer is really just irritation, not better gameplay.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6358
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Aedh » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:53 am

The prot talents just aren't that sexy.

Why would I want my main pulling tool to have a chance to have it's CD reset?

Why would should I have to pick between boosting healing/ret aura damage or reducing the cd on my stun, that is still on the GCD?

Why is Sanctuary still 3 points?

Why do we have to talent for our AP reduction effect?

Why is JotJ still single target?

There are some cool things, I do like the chance for Judgement to be reset on HotR crits.

And.....that's about it.
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Whatever happened to Quebec seceding? If they do that, can we invade? America could really use the revenue from exporting syrup and hockey players.
Aedh
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:57 am
Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Candiru » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:00 am

I think HP works well for holy.

HolyShock -> used when you need instant healing. Generates 1 HP. If you have 3, get a free instant heal!

Beacon healing. Direct healing on your beacon target gets you 1 HP. This at least presents a choice in who to heal. Do you get the free 50% healing by healing two targets at once, or heal the beacon target to get more HP for free healsz?

Holy can either stack to 3 HP, or just go HolyShock->WoG every time to make their holy shocks a bit more powerful. If holy is really short on mana then maybe meleeing with SoW and using CS,HS and WoG would be viable to get some instant only healing while meleeing for mana?

Ret generate HP every other GCD, and will want to keep up inqusition (1p /10s) and otherwise use Templar's Verdict if they have enough duration on their buff. Can save 3 for nuking adds etc or use it on Divine Storm for AoE.

Prot, we get no real choices about HP, since we are locked out of Inquisition if we use HS, and only just get enough HP to keep up HS. WoG will be a tiny heal, and probably cost you more damage taken from HS downtime. Only real choice is gear for hit/expertise and use HS. Or gear for pure defence and use Inquisition and a few WoG. To make HP more compelling, we should have HolyShield as a 20s duration buff, which does the damage reflect, and adds 5% block for every holy power we currently have stored. That way it still consumes HP, since if you leave it up you are wasting any extra HP you generate. But it won't require large amounts of hit rating to avoid it dropping off. If we want to, we can swap it for inquisition for more threat, or use a WoG to heal ourselves and loose the 15% buff temporarily.

I think consuming HP works well for damage or healing, but for mitigation buffs it makes more sense for it to amplify them without consuming HP, since the duration of the benefit still equals a cost in wasted extra HP.
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Marklevin » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:02 am

Why are people complaining so much about Avenger's Shield having its CD reset? It's supposed to be our tag ability (since we get it when we spec Protection initially) Doing more stuff with it is a GOOD thing. I love having a CD reset to watch out for, don't worry so much about your damn pulling tool and worry more about using your signature ability more than once per fight.
Personally, I think ToC had the hardest trash in the game. Wait... what do you mean? Those were bosses!? Lies.
User avatar
Marklevin
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:17 pm

Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:11 am

Lets tone down the QQ and the QQ backlash a bit and have some actual discussion. I'd hate to have to lock this thread.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest