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Holy Shield Holy Power & You

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Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Bobness » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:53 am

Of all the bits & bobs of info from the Beta this seems to me by far the most clunky & unappealing part of Prot Paladin Changes to date.

It looks like blizzard likes the Idea of tying us to a Holy Power system for mitigation, perhaps we could get behind a less monotonous/carpel tunnel inducing implementation of Holy Shield, assuming that it will in some way be tied to Holy Power.


For example:-

I'd prefer Holy shield to start at 15% Block and have the buff decay if any of CS/Hotr/Shor is not refreshed within X secs rather than ramping it up.. & starting at a mitigation disadvantage.
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:34 am

The way I see it, there are a few different options for what we can do with Holy Power:

- Use it for a choice between a 100% uptime mitigation buff, and a DPS buff. The mitigation buff must be strong enough that it is never worth losing for the DPS buff while tanking, or we won't want to use it and our threat will be through the roof. This is the current system, except the DPS boost is huge and the mitigation buff is meh. It also requires ALL of our Holy Power, which is undesirable because there's no choice going on, it's just a chore.

- Use it for a choice between a mitigation buff and a DPS buff, neither of which can be up all the time. This is less than desirable, because a weak mitigation bonus that only works some of the time can either be ignored or will lead to bumpy threat. We're not DKs here.

- Use it for a choice between a damaging attack, or a defensive cooldown. This is terrible, because it links our threat rotation with our ability to use a lifesaving cooldown at a moment's notice.

- Use it for a choice between multiple damage or utility spells, none of which are mitigation. This is my favorite, as it lets us keep survivability unentangled with our rotation.

- Use it for a choice between multiple defensive buffs which are mutually exclusive. This is an improvement on the existing system, but would probably add too much defensive flexibility.

The ideal in my book would be something like this:
Holy Shield is no longer tied to Holy Power. Inquisition is still exclusive with it, so you can't use it while tanking if HS will be up all the time.
Hammer of the Righteous is now tied to Holy Power charging its multi-target ability. HotR gets to retain its hard-hitting multi-attack.
Shield of Righteousness is back, now tied to Holy Power charging its single-target ability. Instead of giving a damage bonus, the charges grant a DoT that you leave on the target or a buff that increases damage taken by your Vengeance stacks (whatever those are called now).

When you're tanking, you'll want to use CS often enough to keep up a ShoR debuff on a single target, or HotR for multiples. When you're OTing or soloing, you'll want to keep Inquisition up for damage as well. They could also give us a talent that grants a chance for HP gain, and marginalize CS altogether in favor of something else while we're tanking. The problem is, right now we'd have nothing else to press...


Now, with regard to Holy Shield: I would like to see a longer base duration before we start looking at refreshing mechanics. I don't like spending HP on it, but I wouldn't mind spending it once at the beginning of the fight and never having to worry about it falling off even if there are 30 second gaps where I don't take damage and can't hit anything.
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Jefferson » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:28 am

This might be obvious, but it only just occurred to me: Holy power is how bliz is trying to solve the OT conundrum for tankadins. Warriors are going to be able to build vengeance while off-tanking through vigilance, DKs can pop into frost pres to gain 10% extra dmg, and bears can hop into cat to do more dps. If Inquisition and Holy Shield are mutually exclusive, then we'll theoretically be using HS on all progression fights and Inq when off-tanking or on farm content. This worries me slightly. Firstly, DKs and Bears won't be in a good position to maintain 2nd on an agro table, and secondly (assuming all 4 off-tank DPS increasing abilities are balanced similarly) we will be able to do substantially more dps while tanking than any of the other tanks by sacrificing HS. This means that for any fight with a significant DPS check, we run the risk of being the best tanking option by far, especially in 10s where tank dps is a higher % of total dps to begin with. I can't really see an easy way out of this conundrum, either. Unless they make Inquisition something that we *cannot* use while tanking (take away our crit immune when it's up?) we will be far and away the highest dps tank class. If they take away inquisition altogether, we are likely the weakest off-tanks and relegate the other tanks to off-tanking duty.

I may be in a minority, but I *really* like the idea that HS is something we need to refresh every minute. My two quibbles with the holy power system as it stands are: a) CS is an iconic ret ability (was it not the ability that refreshed all the other paladins' judgments back in BC?) and I wish that we had a prot holy power generator and b) that we had something a bit more interesting as a choice for a holy power dump. It would certainly be nice to have the option to use 3 holy power to maybe absorb an amount of spell dmg and/or convert it into healing, maybe something to balance with AMS from DKs...
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:30 am

HS as it stands requires refreshing every 15 seconds; I think a full minute would be a welcome improvement, actually, but still be annoying.
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Jefferson » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:49 am

I was of the impression that it was a base of 15s and then 10s for each holy power...so 45s. I vaguely recall GC mentioning it lasting a minute, though I can't seem to find the source of that right now. The chances of it going live with a 15s duration are pretty minimal, since there was a bunch of hullabaloo about making it less maintenancey than it is now (10s duration vs. 15s doesn't seem like much of a change, imo).
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Chicken » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:50 am

Jefferson wrote:I was of the impression that it was a base of 15s and then 10s for each holy power...so 45s. I vaguely recall GC mentioning it lasting a minute, though I can't seem to find the source of that right now. The chances of it going live with a 15s duration are pretty minimal, since there was a bunch of hullabaloo about making it less maintenancey than it is now (10s duration vs. 15s doesn't seem like much of a change, imo).
Currently it's always 15 seconds, what scales with your Holy Power is the amount it blocks. 5% for each Holy Power, so 15% Block at most for 15 seconds. It's why it's getting a fair bit of flak, as with Crusader Strike's 4 second cooldown, you just barely generate enough Holy Power to keep up Holy Shield.

--

At any rate, as I've posted elsewhere I don't see the whole "choosing between mitigation and threat" thing they're going for working out. It's at best a nightmare to balance to properly, since it basically improves Prot Paladin scaling more than the other tanks once the Mitigation isn't needed to progress any more. And if the mitigation from Holy Shield is actually needed to progress, there's no choice there either: You just keep up Holy Shield on progression.

The fact of the matter is that mitigation is simply a largely passive thing. Only cooldown based abilities that reduce your damage taken are an exception, but linking those to Holy Power is a bit flawed as then you end up with a mitigation ability with a long cooldown that you can't use unless you've spent time building up your Holy Power first. So you have an ability that's not available all the time, that's also further made not available because well, you need your Holy Power for other things as well.

As PsiVen said above, their best option is to instead make Holy Power a threat/damage vs. utility choice. That means they do need to add a few more Holy Power consuming abilities, as quite apart from the issues mentioned above, Holy Shield, Inquisition and Word of Glory are the only three abilities that even use Holy Power that Prot Paladins get, so currently even if we were to have more Holy Power available to us now, we wouldn't have anything to use it on: Word of Glory's healing isn't going to scale with the spell power we get from Touched by the Light, and doesn't scale with Attack Power either, so the healing it does will quickly diminish to being meaningless for us.

If they do want to keep up the whole "Keep up a buff and then mix in other abilities when your buff isn't about to run out" thing that Ret Paladins have going on right now, that could work, but they're best off making the buffs spec specific (In addition to, as mentioned above, adding something else for Prot to use Holy Power on). Inquisition could be a Ret Paladin thing then, Holy Shield a Prot Paladin thing, and we can invent something else for Holy Paladins that improves their healing. Prot Paladins would need a method to generate Holy Power out of combat then however: If it's our only Holy Power based buff, we will be expected to keep it up permanently to be competitive, so we'd be at a disadvantage compared to other tanks if we couldn't start the fight with Holy Shield active.
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Jefferson » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:49 am

Yeah, that 15s thing is worth taking a bunch of flak over, and I keep coming back to just not liking CS as prot's HP generator. I think we're pretty much in agreement on the mitigation vs. threat issue, though I'm not sure how they solve the off-tanking issue without something along those lines.
Chicken wrote:If they do want to keep up the whole "Keep up a buff and then mix in other abilities when your buff isn't about to run out" thing that Ret Paladins have going on right now, that could work, but they're best off making the buffs spec specific (In addition to, as mentioned above, adding something else for Prot to use Holy Power on)

This is pretty much what I expected them to do, but yeah...there's nowhere near enough to spend HP on as prot right now.

I had typed up an argument against them giving us more holy power options, thinking that even with more options the decision would be automatic, but I've managed to talk myself out of it. Assuming that a) holy shield is mutually exclusive with inquisition, b) they don't give us any additional self-healing HP dumps and c) they give us a handful of utility HP triggered abilities d) we have a predictable and even stream of HP generation, and e) keeping HS up doesn't eat all of our HP points, we will have real options on how to dump HP.

HS will be top priority, but with any extra HP points we can choose between survivability (self-heals, assuming they stay relevant and scale) and utility. In my opinion - for this system to really work - *all* of our utility abilities should be tied to holy power. Make all the hand spells scale with it, make DG scale with it, make aura mastery scale with it, maybe even repentance. If a paladin knows that he's going to need hand of freedom in 10-15s, he has to manage his HP to be able to use it. IMO, this should not get in the way of using the core HP dump for a given tree, but at least it gives options and makes us think about how we do things.
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Arianne » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:42 am

What I can see happening is that we'll just stack mastery rating until we get enough to not feel 'squishy' (ie: 20-30%) and then stop using HS and use Inquisition instead. That way we don't have to take gear that has hit or expertise or worry about the hit or expertise caps and can just gear for all mastery rating and not worry about the stupid CS/HS mechanic.
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Tev » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:03 am

I don't like the current Holy Shield implimentation... I would rather have HS be something you can always use when its off its CD for 15% block + damage on block, but then have the HS charges be used for enhancing it some other way (DD component? HS proc off other recieved attacks, not just blocks (like 25%/50%/75% chance to proc damage on any incoming damage, parried hits, or dodged hits)

Otherwise it feels like you always have to burn your charges on HS.
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Chicken » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:34 pm

Arianne wrote:What I can see happening is that we'll just stack mastery rating until we get enough to not feel 'squishy' (ie: 20-30%) and then stop using HS and use Inquisition instead. That way we don't have to take gear that has hit or expertise or worry about the hit or expertise caps and can just gear for all mastery rating and not worry about the stupid CS/HS mechanic.
Which is a pretty good indicator for them needing to change how HS works at least. If a player's preferred way of dealing with one of their class mechanics is to do their best to ensure they don't have to use it, there's something pretty flawed there.
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Modal » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:11 pm

Arianne wrote:What I can see happening is that we'll just stack mastery rating until we get enough to not feel 'squishy' (ie: 20-30%) and then stop using HS and use Inquisition instead. That way we don't have to take gear that has hit or expertise or worry about the hit or expertise caps and can just gear for all mastery rating and not worry about the stupid CS/HS mechanic.


So you're imagining trading threat stats for mitigation stats and then trading a mitigation buff for a threat buff? Seems like a good idea to me, now that you mention it!

I bet 26+ expertise and 8%+ hit are enough itemization points to get us 15% block chance?
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby steadypal » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:24 pm

since we're the BLOCK TANK, we should get 15% baseline and then let holy power add 5% for every HP we have up when we use it..
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Arianne » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:33 pm

Of course now that I've brought that idea up, they'll change mastery rating to do something else so that we can't do that. ;)
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby steadypal » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:56 am

really need to add something to the interface, sort of like dk or rogues get, not just something on the buff bar
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Re: Holy Shield Holy Power & You

Postby Marblehead » Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:19 am

Ghostcrawler wrote:
Holy Power: Will this get a new UI element similar to the Warlock shards or Rogue combo points?

Yes.


Ghostcrawler wrote:
How will this be displayed on a paladin's UI? A new bar under the mana bar? Or a stacking buff?

A new bar.
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