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A new way to challenge tanks?

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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Chunes » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:43 am

Flex wrote:
Chunes wrote:
Jefferson wrote:With any luck, raid designs in Cata will be a lot closer to Uld than ICC. I honestly cannot think of a single fight in Ulduar that wasn't interesting and/or challenging to tank. It's too bad ICC has been such a disappointment on that score...


Agreed except I found XT and Kologarn to be pretty dull as well.



Boring fights to boss tank in Ulduar:
Razorscale
Ignis
XT
Iron Council
Kologarn
Auryia
Hodir
Freya
Thorim
Vezax

If your idea of an exciting fight to tank is Kite or Taunt when debuffed or Add tank then Ulduar is A-okay.


Did you even raid ulduar?

Razor - dodge fire patches, separate WW add from others, control small adds, burn phase, then a semi-kite/tank swap.

Ignis - "scorched earth" placement for MT, golem tanking/melting/shattering for OT, combo of kiting, snap threat and dynamic movement requirements.

XT - yeah that's pretty dull

Council - self dispelling rune punch, positioning of the three bosses while avoiding runes/fires, keeping the little guy locked down (if you're a warrior or DK I suppose, that job sucks for paladins), and this fight had the choice of choosing which order you killed them, the fight had 3 separate flavors pretty much.

Lologarn - yeah boring

Auriaya - Initial pull gibbing :D, keeping the summoned add under control, positioning the add when it died and voidzoned. I'd say this fight is not excellent, but it wasn't boring by any means.

The 4 guardians - Hodir was all about movement/buff propagation/don't stand in this, but stand in this instead, awesome. Thorim hallway group is boring? really? Even coliseum group had their hands full wrangling adds. Freya was an OT's wet dream, 3 different varieties of offtankable adds, all with different approaches. Mimiron - enough said.

Vezax was irritating, but I genuinely liked the "you only have X mana to work with, deal with it" mechanic. Specced 2/2 SA for our first few kills, good times.

and P.s., Yog was amazing.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Jefferson » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:58 am

Pretty much what Chunes said, but I should add that off-tanking hard mode XT was interesting (at least with my ranged dpsers), and off-tanking involved a mess of mechanics that also applied to the rest of the raid (moving in and out of the group, etc.) that was a lot of fun. Kolo was fun, to me, because when you pick up adds out of melee there's a solid chance you get eye beams at you, which means kiting a pack of adds around the back of the room while not letting that lock's seed pull threat. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but if you were bored by Ulduar tanking, what sort of tanking *is* interesting to you, Flex?
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:03 am

Chunes wrote:Did you even raid ulduar?


Yes I did.

Razorscale is add tanking + kiting.
Ignis is a simple movement fight and add wrangling if you're the OT.
Council is movement only if they get a rune of power.
Auriaya initial pull gibbing is a non-issue if you pull smart. Who controlled the summoned add? If it died in a bad location move the boss 3 feet.
Hodir didn't need much from the tank, could get away with standing by a fire and having someone give you the storm buff. It really challenged tanks in hard mode though for balancing survival with threat.
Thorim was an add fight, but the actual tanking of the boss? Dull beyond words. If you ever did the second boss in Oculus you did Thorim.
Freya add tank was sort of exciting, but the boss tanking? Dull.
Mimiron had two phases that required a traditional tank, one phase requiring none and a third best served by a ranged, but tanking was the least of the issues.
Vezax was annoying.
Yogg was add wrangling and was a raid fight, rarely was the issue tank failure.

I'm not saying the instance wasn't fun, it was. But it wasn't an amazing tank test.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:06 am

Jefferson wrote:if you were bored by Ulduar tanking, what sort of tanking *is* interesting to you, Flex?


I'm never bored tanking. Proper execution of my role to ensure maximal success to my raid group is what I am after.

There are two bosses in ICC that I feel are complete failures of tank design Marrowgar and Blood Queen. ICC has plenty of add fights and kiting fights.
Last edited by Flex on Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Chunes » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:12 am

Jefferson wrote:...but if you were bored by Ulduar tanking, what sort of tanking *is* interesting to you, Flex?


I'm curious about this as well. By Flex's definition, there isn't a single interesting fight in the game because pretty much every fight can be reduced to

1) Tank boss
2) Fire under you? If yes move
3) Adds? If yes, control them (OT or you)
4) Stacking debuff that will kill you? If yes, have OT taunt

I mean, there's not much more to tanking than that when you really boil it down. Once upon a time we had the threat meta game to play, but those days are more or less through provided your tank's gear is on par w/ the rest of the raid. Though if it isn't, you'll usually get squashed before threat becomes an issue.

If I had time I'd go through every raid boss in the game to validate if they fit the 1-4 steps above, but I have a feeling someone will bring up an exception to the rule given enough time.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:12 am

andx wrote:4 maybe 5 mobile by my count and its not even both tanks. Curious where you find the other 3?

EDIT: I'm not calling you wrong or anything i'm just curious.


Well surely it's subjective, but: (keeping in mind hardmodes)
Marrowgar requires constant repositioning, even though you're mostly stationary, followed by repositioning and re-facing the raid after a bonestorm. Pretty mobile if you ask me, though not in the most interesting way.
LDW certainly requires movement, unless you're very lazy and let the adds come to you before DPSing them. You also have to move around a fair amount
Princes at least requires movement away from hazards, or movement around to whack orbs if you're expected to do so when OTing. But HM does encourage not moving, so it's iffy.
LK is a very mobile fight, depending on how you optimize Valkyr, Defile, and Soul Reaper.

In any case, I look at movement as an optimizer. If there's a better place for me and/or the boss to be, I'll go there if it doesn't cost us more DPS time than it gains. Some fights are very stationary, but any fight that doesn't have to be, probably isn't in my book.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Huon » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:21 am

Can someone say FLAMES OF AZZINOTH TANKING?
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:25 am

Ugh, I'd rather you hadn't. I don't need any more fights that induce panic attacks followed by long periods of slumber...
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Huon » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:26 am

PsiVen wrote:Ugh, I'd rather you hadn't. I don't need any more fights that induce panic attacks followed by long periods of slumber...


haha, Come on dude, that fight was the most fun I ever had in this game ! Tanking the flames was serious business !
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby andx » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:35 am

PsiVen wrote:some things that are valid


marrowgar even on hard mode you dont really need to move much. just move out of the fire and after bonestorm make sure he's not facing anyone, not so much movement if you do things correctly. I dont really think of this as mobile.
LDW- it has some movement but basically its me on one side and our DK tank on the other and he yanks the stairs add over so not so much there. P2 I grab the boss, people pay attention to spirits, they move, OT brings adds into the boss area, still not too much movement but i can see where you are going on this one.
Princes- for the main tank you dont need to move at all after the preliminary positioning.
LK- Only time you need to move is transitions and defile. If you have an organized raid you dont need to move otherwise. I haven't done HC 25 lk yet so this is just based on normal.
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Leidus » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:31 am

Flex wrote:Boring fights to boss tank in Ulduar:
Razorscale
Ignis
XT
Iron Council
Kologarn
Auryia
Hodir
Freya
Thorim
Vezax

If your idea of an exciting fight to tank is Kite or Taunt when debuffed or Add tank then Ulduar is A-okay.


I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with this, and add Yogg to the list. Then again, I often feel I'm alone in thinking Ulduar is the least fun raid of this expansion. I still enjoyed it, and I enjoyed the higher difficulty than Naxx, but I even found Naxx's encounters to be more fun than Ulduar's. Ulduar's first half (up through Auriya) has got to be the most boring section of raid in the entire game. To me, ICC is the highlight of this expansion, and I find its encounters, from both a tank and ranged dps perspective, to be far greater in fun, flavor, and execution than any of the other WotLK raids. EDIT: With the obvious exception of BQL and Gunship, which are very poor encounters from a tank perspective.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Arianne » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:44 am

I think I just disagree with your definition of interesting Flex.

I thought that Iron Council was particularly well designed. You had the boss that was designed for Paladin or DK tanks (the big one that does the magic attack). You had the boss that was designed for someone who could interrupt (warrior, DK). You had the boss that had to be dispelled or tanked through (warrior, druid). Sure doing the fight on 'easymode' wasn't very interesting, but adding the different hard modes made tanking much more interesting (move the bosses around, position bosses in particular ways), though the 'easymode' was more interesting to tank when you could taunt the boss as he was flying around.

Ignis was good when you couldn't just face him into the water and offtank all of the adds.
Razorscale wasn't necessarily interesting in that it had a new mechanic or anything to figure out or do, but it does keep you constantly busy picking up adds or kiting the boss (except during the chained up burn period).
XT was always boring unless you had to do something with the little adds (kite him away from adds or something).
Kologarn was boring, I'll agree.
Auriaya was boring except for the pull, which always made me wonder if I was going to die this time.
Hodir had the challenge of threat plus the challenge of positioning him to get your melee buffs, which was interactive and changed every fight.
Freya offtanking was interesting because it was dynamic and you did at one time have to carefully plan explosions and interrupts and be careful tanking the Snaplasher. Freya boss tanking was boring.
Thorim was boring because you ended up tanking him in the middle and rotating around him.
Vezax was boring for a tank, except maybe a DK who had to eek out as much self-healing as he could.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Amirya » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:44 pm

Leidus wrote:Then again, I often feel I'm alone in thinking Ulduar is the least fun raid of this expansion.

No.

Trial of the Crusader.

Huge yawnfest.

/yawn
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Leidus » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:00 pm

While I didn't like ToC overall, mainly due to no trash (boss boss boss boss boss switch to heroic boss boss boss boss boss done was pretty dumb), I found the actual boss encounters in ToC to be much more engaging and inventive than those in Ulduar.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Arjuna » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:13 am

Leidus wrote:While I didn't like ToC overall, mainly due to no trash (boss boss boss boss boss switch to heroic boss boss boss boss boss done was pretty dumb), I found the actual boss encounters in ToC to be much more engaging and inventive than those in Ulduar.

really?

1st boss was: stand still and taunt off each other, then stand still or kite, and then stand still and tank...
2nd boss was: stand still and tank...
3d boss was: not tanked...
4th boss was: stand still and tank, sometimes switch color and back again...
5th boss was: stand still and tank, sometimes run around like a maniac...

personally I thought that tanking in ToC was a huuuge yawnfeast and could do it in my sleep...
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