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Ask a beta tester thread

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:46 am

Given that Mastery *does* increase our block chance, and that we don't exactly know how much %block each Mastery point will grant, and you're counting a cooldown in there for the Warrior side, I don't think that's exactly a fair comparison.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Xenix » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:07 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Given that Mastery *does* increase our block chance, and that we don't exactly know how much %block each Mastery point will grant, and you're counting a cooldown in there for the Warrior side, I don't think that's exactly a fair comparison.


Ignoring mastery scaling for the moment, you can add barkskin in to what Yelena was saying - assume every attack does 100 damage:

Warrior blocks 11/21 attacks using shield block on c/d and takes (assuming no critical blocks) 70*11+100*10 = 1770/2000 damage, for 11.5% reduction.

Paladin blocks 8/21 attacks. He also is extremely lucky and has barkskin up for five of the attacks that hit and that he doesn't block. This means he takes 70*8+80*5+100*8 = 1760 damage, for 12% reduction.

This is an absolute best case - for a better average assumption, let's say that while the paladin had barkskin up, he dodged once, blocked twice and got hit twice. He would then have taken 70*6+56*2+80*2+100*11 = 1792/2000 damage, for 10.4% reduction

Now, if you add the fact that warrior blocks can be critical blocks in there, the warrior is currently going to be fairly far ahead in damage reduction against pure melee attacks. A bit of magic damage would push it to even, and on heavier non-melee damage fights, we'd have the advantage.

I also very much doubt that different mastery scaling would work - it'd be just like when Blizz used stam scaling to fix our base health discrepancy and it ended up being too little for half the expansion, then too much and had to be nerfed after that.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Yelena » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:43 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Given that Mastery *does* increase our block chance, and that we don't exactly know how much %block each Mastery point will grant, and you're counting a cooldown in there for the Warrior side, I don't think that's exactly a fair comparison.

I was simply looking at the blocking mechanic, which included abilities which increased chance to block. Based on that, the current blocking model on beta goes against the design intent stated.

Adding Diving Protection to the mix helps brings things closer, from a TDR perspective; but outside of a few oddities, most fights still feature (blockable) melee as the predominant threat to tanks, which would still put Paladins at a slight disadvantage.

I ignored Mastery Rating (and by association, scaling) because we don't know how it will scale yet. I'm inclined to agree with Xenix in that it'll likely be fairly linear between the two classes or else we'll run into Sacred Duty 2.0

Edit: While considering cooldowns, since Guardian of Ancient Kings is intended to be our new Shield Wall, and Divine Protection has been relegated to Barkskin status; the redesigned Ardent Defender comes into play (which, by admission, I forgot to consider, as I'm still used to the current passive implementation). Depending on how a fight's damage model pans out, AD could very well pull Paladins ahead, since the analogous cooldown (Last Stand) doesn't feature any sort of damage reduction mechanic to it.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:13 pm

Well the Prot Warrior Mastery improves both Block % and Critical Block %, so I would be surprised if they got exactly the same % per Mastery point that we get for our Block % Mastery. I don't think there's any Sacred Duty 2.0 in this.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Ryyu » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:11 am

Is the SotR block proc still exclusive with Inquisition?
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Noradin » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:38 am

Sabindeus wrote:Given that Mastery *does* increase our block chance, and that we don't exactly know how much %block each Mastery point will grant, and you're counting a cooldown in there for the Warrior side, I don't think that's exactly a fair comparison.


Technically HS has an effective CD, too and if you miss/get avoided often enough its not that much below SB.

Still, without SB we would be roughly equal in amount of damage blocked (including crit blocks of course).
SB is a bit too strong and on too short a CD to be balanced and it cortradicts GC statment of "paladins block more often (formerly for more), warriors sometimes get critical blocks". Right now paladins take a lot more damage, they have to work harder and don't even get close anyway.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby steadypal » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:02 am

abilities to proc our tank seal? we getting more than just auto attack u think?
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Arincia » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:41 am

Yeah other issue is scaling on our mastery's as well if you ignore shield block:

Warrior:

*20% each from mastery*
25% dodge/parry
50% block rate
30% crit block

25 dodge parry
35 blocked
15 crit blocked
25 unblocked
=25+35*(.7)+15*(.4)= 55.5

*30% each from mastery*
25% dodge/parry
60% block rate
40% crit block

25 dodge/parry
36 blocked
24 crit blocked
15 unblocked
=15+36*(.7)+24(.4)= 49.8

Paladin
* 29% from mastery*
25% avoidence
65% block rating

25 dodge/parry
65 block
10 hit
=10+65*.7=55.5%
(45% more scaling to stay the same)

*block capped*
25% avoidence
75% block

25 dodge/parry
75 block
0 hit
= 75*.7= 52.5

I mean they can adjust scaling but without making us blocked capped warrior gets shafted for balance or we need to block more per hit to not have to be block capped and still take the same average damage then warriors.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Candiru » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:14 am

Shield block does seem far too powerful for a short CD. It means you take 30% less damage from all attacks, and 60% less depending on your crit.block chance. At high mastery it will be better than shield wall, which has a far higher CD!

Shield block either needs to be toned down, or have its CD increased. It could do something like "all unblocked hits are blocked, but cannot be critical blocks." or just up it to 1min CD like barkskin/divine protection.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:12 am

I feel like there's a lot of cross-posting between here and the ShoR thread at this point...

Here's my question for a beta tester! (Though I should be able to do a char copy and log in soon...) Is there still wintersaber rep in Winterspring? I've been putting it off until I can fly back and forth, but that requires them to still have the quests in the game.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby seigert » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:18 am

Candiru wrote:Shield block does seem far too powerful for a short CD. It means you take 30% less damage from all attacks, and 60% less depending on your crit.block chance. At high mastery it will be better than shield wall, which has a far higher CD!


Shield Block does nothing with magical damage or damage which cannot be blocked (overpower anyone?). Shield Wall or Divine Barskin do.

From that point of view I'll trade 30sec cd ability to block any melee damage for 30% reduction for 1min cd ability to reduce all incoming damage by 20% anytime.

Also, while using Divine Barskin you still can block some of incoming damage for additional 30% reduction, which in this case will be analog of warrior's critical blocking under Shield Block.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby celinos » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:53 pm

Speaking of our block and mastery - Does it feel like Deja Vu to anyone that once again DKs mastery helps vs any type of damage while warriors and paladins are going to scale against melee hits only? Yay Sarth!

They may balance it nicely. I mean I don't know what the DKs will be healing for or what we'll be blocking for or what Warriors will crit block for.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby steadypal » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:59 pm

there should be ZERO % chance that warrior shield block hits live at 100% br right? holy shield got cut in half, shield block should atleast get the cut to right?
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:24 pm

steadypal wrote:there should be ZERO % chance that warrior shield block hits live at 100% br right? holy shield got cut in half, shield block should atleast get the cut to right?


why? they do different things.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Minnerva » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:13 pm

didn't got a invite to beta this time around, can you guys record some tanking with the prot paladin so i can see how things will change in cataclysm?
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